Your Lawyer DOES NOT CARE About Your Affair

Julie: [00:00:00] So one of the attorneys that I work with did a blog post recently about your attorney does not care about either your infidelity or your spouse's infidelity. So I thought that was a good, or really you thought that was a good place to start today to talk about.

Because I don't have any statistic, but it is quite frequent that people come in and say either I've had an affair or my spouse is having an affair and that's sort of the impetus to coming to see me. So let's start with the people who are having an affair. Oftentimes at the initial consult, they'll come in and they'll beat around the bush for like the first 45 minutes to an hour. And, and eventually I go. Was there something else going on? And they'll kind of hang their head in shame and say, well, I did meet somebody and you know, 

they go into it and you can see the shame. And look, this is not morality court. The courts do not care what you did. So [00:01:00] being me, I'm very direct and when people come in and say, that they may have stepped out of the marriage, I look at them and I say, the courts don't care if you fucked all of Westchester, okay?

And I literally say it like that. I'm like, this isn't a court of morality. Now, there is still fault in Pennsylvania, which we can touch on briefly, but the courts don't care. And That's an important piece because you can have your guilt, that's up to you, that's up to your religion or whatever you are, but when it comes to court, it doesn't matter.

The only time it can matter is, really I say in two ways, one, if you or your spouse in furtherance of their affair have used marital funds. So, if they have, then we can kind of claw back that money in. In other words, hey, if the person spent 50, 000 on hotel rooms and dinners and gifts, well then we can add that back into the marital estate because that money should not have been used to further the affair.

So that's one way that it matters, but not for [00:02:00] morality, for adding money back into the pot. The other way, at least in Pennsylvania, is in a claim for alimony. So the factors that come into alimony is, one of them is this issue. However, I've only had One person in the past 10 years seek alimony who was having the affair and the other attorney brought that up and the court didn't care.

They just didn't care. And my client was the one who was the person having the affair. And so that person did still get alimony. So when you're going into your lawyer's office, if you've had the affair. Just tell it from the beginning. We're not here to judge you.

I have heard it all. I really have, and I really, I don't care. And I mean that in the nicest way. I'm not here to judge you. It's not my life.

Emily: Why do you think people don't want to tell their lawyer? Do they think [00:03:00] that, I mean, judgment's probably one piece of it, but do they think then they are going to be negatively impacted in the divorce if, well, if I tell my lawyer, then they know, and then they can't go and get. Everything that I want or something like that.

Julie: Yeah, they're going to think it matters. They think they're going to think it matters to the, to the hearing officer or the judge that the person is going to be casting judgment on them, you know, and, and I tell people it is not a court of morality.

No one I know gets into a marriage and goes, I can't wait to have an affair and get a divorce. It's not what anybody plans. And frankly, in my experience, affairs are a symptom of other issues. Which I can touch on and again, I, I'm not a therapist, I feel like I'm a therapist a lot.

I mean, I am an attorney and counselor at law, but I don't believe that is intended to be counselor in therapy, but I feel like that's part of our job. So I do tell people who feel that guilt without getting into. Too much, you know, high level opinion or philosophy. Guilt is a means [00:04:00] of which to have people conform, right?

Your parents make you feel guilty so that you do what they want. Society makes you feel guilty so that you conform and look, conformity is great, but at the same time, no one is in your shoes. So. When you're feeling guilty, decide, is it worth it? So that's the first thing. The second part is it's a symptom.

So maybe your marriage, this intact couple has either nothing in common anymore and they've grown apart or there's abuse. I mean, there's reasons that people go outside of the marriage. There's something missing in that marriage that they're going out for. So it's not like somebody is like having a happy marriage and all of a sudden they're like, Hey, check that person out.

It is because there is something lacking in that relationship. So. I say that because , I don't believe you're a bad person because you've made this choice. That's up for you and your life to decide how that goes.

So I think they just believe it's going to factor into either their assets they're going to get, if they're going to get alimony, should they have to pay alimony and just overall judgment and feeling bad the people that I think struggle more are the ones who have been [00:05:00] cheated on. They want it to matter. They want it to matter very bad.

 I've had them say, but they were wrong. They are the, bad guy. And what I say, and I think every attorney should say, is, while it is not relevant to the court, it matters to me to understand where you are, because , if your attorney can't understand where you are, then they can't help you.

So I say, I hear you and it's important and it helps me understand where your mind is. But it doesn't matter for the court. And if your attorney tells you that it matters, at least here in Pennsylvania, and they're continuing to perpetuate the, my client was right or wrong. It's not getting them anywhere.

And really it's wasting your money and your energy. You know, our job as attorneys is to take the emotion out of it as much as we can

because

it's not a court of emotion or morality. And so if a attorney is fueling that, think about the reasoning why. What we're talking about mostly has to do with divorce and division of assets and alimony.

But people often want it to matter in custody [00:06:00] and, they want to use it as a weapon. They're the bad guy. They're, and I don't say he or she, they being a person, is the bad guy. They shouldn't have , the kids. This is, wrong. The courts aren't going to judge them because they had an affair.

It's not unreasonable to say. And again, how much will the court micromanage is a different discussion, but not to introduce a significant other for a period of time. So that way the kids can process their parents being separated without being introduced to a new person and give the kids that time to process.

That's not unreasonable. That's relevant to say, look, our kids knew us as an intact couple. What's today? June 16th. They shouldn't have to acclimate to a new person June 30th of this year. They should get that time. You would think that parents would know that but oftentimes when they're in the emotions, they're not seeing it.

So I don't think that's unreasonable to say, hey, you know, I, the parenting classes typically say one year, [00:07:00] but The courts often don't micromanage that far out. So yeah, maybe a year is perfect, maybe six months.

And

then again, how do you enforce it? How do you start that timeline? But in any event, it does give the guide to the person who has that new relationship to kind of back off, let the kids process.

They don't have to become the Brady Bunch instantly. And so that is when you are the wronged individual and you want it to matter. Barring other issues, it's not going to matter. They're going to get custody of the kids to the extent that it's appropriate under the factors because none of the factors in custody has anything to do with an affair.

Arguably someone could say it has to do with judgment. But ultimately being a bad husband or wife does not mean you're a bad parent. And that's often what I will tell people just because they're a bad husband or wife doesn't mean they're a bad parent.

 And right, wrong or indifferent. It is not something that comes into the court process really at all, if ever. And as I said, only in limited situations.

Emily: I'm guessing [00:08:00] that some people's hesitation telling their lawyers they don't want rumors to start and like, obviously there's very strict lawyer client privilege where you're not allowed to go out and gossip about so and so coming into your office and saying this, but could you just go over a little bit in depth of what those rules are, like what you can and can't say and when you have to share that information maybe to the other lawyer

Julie: We as your attorneys... You have privilege with us. We do not share, we cannot share, we do not share your private information. So if I know something and I, and it happens, I'm at school, I see people that are at my kids schools, I just pretend I don't know them. And I tell clients, unless you say hi to me, I'm not going to say hi to you.

And , most clients are like, hey, how you doing? And that's great. And some people look at me and look like I have the plague, and that's okay too. So, A, I'm never gonna let anybody know that I'm your attorney. Even if I say hi to you at the school, I'm not like, Hey, I'm Joe's attorney.

I just say hi. So, that's in the environment. But I can't go tell my friends and neighbors.[00:09:00] 

I can't. I won't. And it is a very strict rule that all good attorneys follow. So there's no gossiping, and like I said, I have heard it all the things I thought I heard a lot in criminal family law has proven me wrong.

But honestly, to some extent, it goes into my ear and went out the other and I don't I'm not talking to people about it. I'm not gossiping about it. Every attorney has like a war story or two, but we, we don't talk about your case. We don't talk about you. We'll talk about, you know, we were in court and the judge did this or the other attorney did this, but we're not talking about you.

 And if they do, that's a bigger problem. So you can tell us anything. And sometimes it feels like a confessional and that's fine because Like I said, I don't judge.

I really, I really truly don't. And then I almost forget. It's like when I leave the office, I'm no longer a lawyer. All the other things that I am in life. I have learned to compartmentalize.

Emily: I can attest to that. You know, me and Julie are very good friends and people will tell me that she's their lawyer, but she [00:10:00] certainly doesn't share that with me.

So if I find out it's not from her, it's from somebody else.

Julie: Yeah, and people go, oh, you represent my friend and I'm like, oh, okay, you know,

Emily: I? I don't know.

Julie: the other day I got a pedicure and someone's like, well you represent blah and I'm like Okay, like I don't get into it

Emily: Right.

Julie: arguably who I represent is public record, but even that I won't acknowledge I just kind of huh like play not play dumb, but play

Emily: No, I can definitely attest to that. And I feel like it's also a little bit probably like you go to the OBGYN and you're like, oh my god. Yeah. Like it's so embarrassing. You know, I don't want them, but when they leave the room, it's the same thing.

Like they see.

Julie: Yeah, well, our neighbor is a gynecologist who has seen my vagina and his wife walks up and down the street and at first I was like, Oh God, you know, he's seen my vagina and I'm like, he's seen 7, 000 vaginas

Emily: he walks out of the room and he's like, right, exactly. So it's the same

Julie: it is the same thing. It's, you know, it's,

Emily: You feel uncomfortable because it's such a big deal to you.

And it is a big deal, right, as the client you feel like, oh my gosh, this is like so embarrassing, I'm so embarrassed. [00:11:00] And, you know, you do care, but it's not. You're not, like, obsessing over it. You're not leaving the office like, Oh my god, I can't believe that person did that.

Julie: No, definitely not. If I'm ever leaving the office thinking about work, it's frustration with, you know, yesterday I was in court and I felt that, the hearing officer did the other attorney's job for them.

It was very frustrating that a hearing officer would go in and basically do their job for them. That's what I'm pissed about. I'm not thinking about, The facts of that case, which did have some salacious points, but I was thinking more about how that hearing officer affected the case in frustration.

We don't talk about you. We don't talk about your case. And like I said, if you don't feel like someone's... Keeping your information confidential like that's a huge issue. Go to a different lawyer

Emily: Just like when you choose a doctor, you shouldn't feel uncomfortable in the office.

You shouldn't feel like, oh, this lawyer's really making me feel bad about what I did. Yeah. Because that's not their job. Right.

Julie: No, and anybody who's been doing this long enough is going to have heard it all too. It's not just me who's heard it all. I'm sure it's everybody. And sometimes I'll [00:12:00] ask maybe one or two more questions, mainly, like I said, to get into your head, like just to understand you, because it's a relationship and I have to understand your thought process.

Emily: And I'd imagine it's probably better for them to be upfront with you. Rather than feel self conscious and then the other side starts saying like, well, this happened and you maybe didn't know yet.

Julie: yeah, I don't want to be surprised, like, and again, having an affair, because that's kind of the topic. That's, I don't care. Like, if I'm sitting in court and all of a sudden they're like, and I'll just use the name Joe because I use it a minute ago, Joe had an affair. That wouldn't make me. flinch. Okay, so what?

BFD, right? But if there are other issues, like if you have a drinking issue and you're not telling me and then the other side's like, well, here's the pictures of them slumped and passed out and here's the pictures of their, night of, , a pint of vodka or whatever it is, that's the stuff I need to know.

I don't want to be surprised on the things that matter and the factors that matter are mental health issues. More than these, but mental health issues, drug and alcohol you know, criminal history, you know, we're gonna find out, so just tell me. [00:13:00] And, and if your attorney doesn't want to know for some reason, then they'll tell you I don't want to know.

Emily: So, that was my other question. So, do people sometimes not tell you things because they're worried that you'll be obligated to do something with that information?

Julie: I cannot misrepresent something to the court. That I know is not true. I have an example in my head, but I don't want to use it for a couple reasons.

 So I'm just gonna go to criminal law. If you tell your lawyer something about the crime that you are accused to commit, they can't then, and this is probably too general and I don't practice criminal law, but it's almost like they don't, they don't want to know.

They want to deal with what evidence they have from the Commonwealth and then they will defend their case that way. Because if you tell them things that

So there have been times that I'm like, I don't want to know the answer to this because I want to just deal with the evidence in front of me. If it's something that's important to the case, because it's not [00:14:00] just custody and divorce, there's different things that happen in each aspect of the case that we may or may not want to know the answer to.

And your attorney will tell you when they don't want to know the answer. They will want to deal with what's in front of them and that's it. So. That's more on some strategic issues, but with things that are going to affect the kids like that's kind of the place where you have to be fully transparent. So there's never going to be a time in custody court, I don't think, that I'm going to say I don't want to know.

I think that's going to be in other situations, but because it's about the kids and transparency is key. And so more often than not in family law, we want to know it all. I can think of something right now where I'm like, I don't want to know. I'm just going to deal with the information in front of me.

Yeah, so they'll tell you if they don't want to know but an affair back to that. We don't care

Emily: But if it's something that is relevant and you didn't wanna know it, but then you do know it,

Julie: Well, I can't misrepresent, right? I

 It's very, it's very limited. I can't think of more than... One time [00:15:00] in the past couple of years that I've been like, I don't want to know. I don't want to know.

Just like, and I will tell them I don't want to know. And ultimately, you know, when it comes to things that are more salacious, like affairs or being, you know, open marriage or, you know, certain sexual preferences, like we really don't care. And if it's brought up in court, truly the state, your attorneys don't care, but more importantly, the fact finders don't care.

They're not, they're, they're not. Judging you the way there are, you know, there's factors, like I said, mental health and custody and, you know, if, if we're talking about division of assets, that may be a consideration with regards to like a mental health issue or what have you. Whether or not they can work.

But they're not judging you in, in the way that you think of a church or a God, or you know, that type of

Emily: philosophy.

Julie: Once you're separated under the law, which the presumptive date in Pennsylvania is the day of filing and service, well, it's the day of service after filing then it's not, it's not out of the marriage, like you're separated so that it really doesn't matter.

So the only time it even could matter is during when you're an intact marriage. And by matter, I mean call back that money [00:16:00] or an alimony claim. So after you're separated, after that divorce is filed and served. You are, for all intents and purposes, single. Exactly.

Emily: And then you touched on this too, if you are having an affair and maybe you're in an abusive marriage and, then you're like, well, I can't go for divorce because he knows I'm having an affair and he's going to use that against me and I'm not going to get what I'm entitled to.

I think you already touched on that. You don't get more because the other person's having an affair.

Julie: You don't get less because you are. Right. And I 

Emily: you don't get less because

Julie: Yep. Nope. That's not a thing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Nope. Somebody said to me recently, but , they were wrong.

They're the bad guy, . That was a custody issue. I'm like, they're still the father. And you picked him. And, again, they can be a really bad husband or wife, but it doesn't make them a bad parent.

So that's a hard thing for people to swallow, because when you're in the middle of it and you're in the heat of it, you're, it's like the ball of yarn. They're all combined, they look at bad husband equals bad father [00:17:00] because they're hurting the family, but you have to take the time, peel it apart.

And that's part of your attorney's job is to go, okay, you're all emotional, but I'm going to pull you out of it and say, This is what you need to focus on. 

Emily: Right?

Julie: the more your attorney fires you up, therefore pushes litigation, the only person who benefits from protracted litigation are the lawyers.

Any person that's pushing you to litigate, and there's times you have to litigate, for sure. But if there's people who are pushing you and, you know, he's horrible, we're going to get him.

I mean, that's probably because they're benefiting their pocketbook. And at least at my office and myself personally, I want to get as much things settled as possible because I got plenty of other work to do. And if, some people don't have a lot of work to do, they're going to churn the fees. So just keep that in mind.

. And I say to people like, why would you want more money in my bank account? Do you want to pay for my kids to go to college or your kids to go to college? And I, I wouldn't want to pay me either.

 I just said this to a client before I came downstairs, fight the battles. You need to fight to win the war because, you know, I have a reputation for you know, I guess quote [00:18:00] unquote winning, but it's not cause I'm amazing. It's because I can pick the right battles.

I know the right battles to pick and it's, I'm not like always going to quote unquote win, but I know where to fight and when not to. So that's an important piece of being a 

Emily: Yeah. Especially when, I mean, nobody

has unlimited money to pay lawyers, so. I have a 

Julie: a case right now. I feel like they do. I mean, there's a lot of litigation, but that unfortunately is one of those cases that we do not have a choice because the other side is beyond unreasonable.

But yeah, don't, don't litigate unless you have to. 

Emily: Alright, thanks Julie!

Bye!