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[00:00:00] 

Well, hi, Julie. It's been a while.

It has, and I'm going to do better at staying on top of things.

You've been a little busy.

A little bit. I changed firms, effective July 1st. So I went through my own divorce. , I laugh, but it felt, it felt as similar as I hope I get. And just like a lot of my clients onward and upward.

I joined Lamb Macroline, effective July 1st, as did most of the people who worked with me and I'm loving it. Everything's going well. And then on top of, you know, actually practicing the law and three kids and my own business divorce, it's been a little busy.

Podcast kind of falls to the wayside just a little bit. So do you want to talk a little bit about what legal services you're providing over at LAM?

Nothing changed, even my location, so I'm doing the same thing, all family law. , I don't dabble. I only stick with this. But my whole office is full service, which is important short of estates work, which I do generally [00:01:00] refer my husband. Because I think he's pretty good at what he does. There's a lot of overlap. Real estate issues, business issues is a big one. And just, you know, the collective knowledge is huge. And I started as a DA. So I also have cases where there's criminal components, so I can have people in my office help.

PFAs. I'm really excited in many ways for PFAs to be with some criminal defense attorneys. I mean, I've defended PFAs. I don't mind it, but I do think the criminal defense attorneys are probably best suited at times for that process, and some of the best ones I know in Chester County are there. So, lucky me.

Lucky, lucky clients.

So if they want to find you Same

Same phone number. 610 840 2626. . Same location and my email is jpotts at lambmcerlane. com. 

And that is L A M B E.

M C E R L A N E dot com and really just Google me because if you

Just Google, that's true.

you'll just find me.

[00:02:00] So as a part of the transition, I was interviewed by Mike Relihan, who's a local reporter last week. And he said, He asked me a couple questions and I thought we'd talk about some of those today.

So the question he asked me, I think the question was better worded than I'm going to say it, but in, in some it was, , do you have a philosophy? And the first thing I said is I have a lot of things I say all the time. And I, so I thought we'd touch, touch on those things because they generally apply to almost every case, not just family law, to be honest.

Some of them do. But I figured we'd touch on a few of those.

Some Julie isms. Some, yeah. 

Some isms that most attorneys should say to their clients I think. So the first one was litigation is a last resort, not a first response. I don't know if I came up with that term or someone else did, but I say it all the time.

In general, the reason I say that is because the only people who win. In court are the lawyers, meaning we get paid or your lawyer should get paid regardless of the outcome in family court. So [00:03:00] yeah, like that should be the last thing we do and , going to court and testifying against the other is sometimes necessary, but sometimes it just , ratchets up the anger, the frustration, all of the negative emotions and doesn't necessarily end up with the result you want.

But once in a while it's spot on what you want. And then a lot of times, even when I get people exactly what they want, they still don't feel satisfied because they just went through hell. So to the extent that you can, and the extent that it's appropriate, sometimes it's just not appropriate.

Sometimes court is necessary, but you know, it should be the last resort, not the first response. 

What do you say to the people, I feel like you see this on TV all the time, where they're like, I'm going to take him for all he's got. I want to be that vicious person who's going to drag him through this as a punishment for whatever he did. Do you find that people want to go to court just for that reason, just to be spiteful

yeah. There's two things to say about that. First is this isn't a punitive process. It's not about punishment. We are [00:04:00] not here in any part of family law to punish people.

If you believe in God, then maybe that's the moral issue that they've committed their sins. This is not a court of morality. I say that all the time. Fault divorce is still an option in Pennsylvania. However, I have never proceeded under a fault divorce because you don't need to.

And to proceed under a fault divorce, you got to not only prove the fault, then you got to prove that you were not at fault. And in Pennsylvania, we have no fault.

So you can consent to the divorce, or you can say we've been separated for a year. So all that to be said is that it's not a punitive process. It is not about who did something wrong. So that's the first thing. A lot of people, come in, hang their head in shame about having affairs.

And I say, sometimes a little crassly, that, you know, you could have slept with half of the county, and it doesn't matter. It doesn't. I mean, it doesn't matter in the division of your assets, it is a factor in alimony, although not, not anything that I've seen weighed significantly, if at all, but it doesn't apply in custody court.

I mean, [00:05:00] there's judgment issues. , if you have a revolving door of prostitutes, I'm not saying that's okay. But if you on your free time are a terrible husband or wife and you've had an affair or two or three, it doesn't mean you're a bad parent. It doesn't mean you're not going to have your equitable portion of your marital estate.

So, it just is not a court of morality. So. And then the next part to answer your question, if the people who come in and say, I'm going to fight for everything and I want it all, or I want sole custody, come on I say, okay, well, do you want to put my three kids through college or yours? And that usually stops people in their tracks. , obviously, I'm not in jest. Yeah, you can pay for my three kids to go to college because I am before profit business and that profit goes in part to my kid's college fund. But you can keep that money and not fight over things that are not worth fighting and put it in your kid's college fund. 

Do you find that there are attorneys out there who make those promises to people when they come in and they're like, you're right, we're gonna take them for all their worth and you're right, you [00:06:00] deserve full custody and you deserve all the money and we're gonna go to court and don't even mention the cost maybe or not even mention that chances of winning are small?

Yeah, recently my paralegal emailed me. And every county does things differently. I say that because sometimes the discovery process in our county, Chester County, is a little bit easier, I would say, because if we are having trouble, it's easier to get a hearing officer involved and get a discovery order, as opposed to more civil procedure of request for production of documents and interrogatories.

And her question to me was some attorney sent and I mean, when I say simple case, I mean, it's like a house and a, maybe a pension and a bank account, like not worth fighting. significant costs. And she said, why would they do this? Whatever they sent over? And I said, because that's how they make money.

And she was like, Oh, and I was like, Yeah, you know, our job, in my opinion, is to find the way to get to the end without costing you everything that you have. In some places, they have a expectation that they're going to bill a certain amount and charge a certain amount. [00:07:00] And that's just not how we're ever going to practice with people in my group.

So Yeah, unfortunately, That's something that happens a lot. And realistic expectations. Oh my god, I say this repeatedly. You have to have realistic expectations. If your lawyer isn't challenging you in some way about your expectations, you should question who's representing you. Because if you walk in and say, I want this, and they say you're spot on, that's suspect to me.

Because our job is to tell you what you need to hear. Here's another ism. My job is to tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. You're not paying me my hourly rate to Pair it back what you want to hear. You're paying me because you need to hear these things. So if you walk in and say, I want, fill in the blank and they say, okay, and they're not challenging you, , that's a concern to me.

And you're not going to like them all the time, but you hire an attorney because we are experienced.

We walk in that courtroom every, every day might be a bit of an exaggeration, but your attorney is likely to be known from the beginning. You know, when I walk in the courthouse, the sheriffs know who [00:08:00] I am, the attorneys know who I am, the court's personnel knows who I am.

That doesn't mean I get any favors, it just means that I'm there a lot, which means I know how things are going to play out, which means that I have that ability to give you realistic expectations. 

How do you handle when the other side is the one who promised all these things? They're trying to take you for everything.

So

the other attorney must know that that's not really going to happen. So how does that usually kind of work out then between you and the other attorney? 

Usually the other attorney will come closer to moderate if I'm talking to them directly. I had a support conference yesterday where the individual was combative, uncooperative, you know, you name the adjective, he was it. I called my client right after and I said, don't engage.

And that's the advice. Don't engage. Don't engage in the crazy. Look, there's certain legal pleadings you have to respond to. There are certain things that you should do at times. So if someone files a bullshit, something or other, even if [00:09:00] you're not required to respond to it, such as a contempt petition here, sometimes it's worth responding so that you put the other person Not only in check, but so the court's on notice because the court's going to look at the pleadings.

But if they're flailing and saying things and sending emails and nasty grams, the best thing I can say is don't engage. It's my advice to clients, meaning, if they're trying to get you to get upset, then walk away. And that's sort of what I do at times with the attorneys.

Although I can think of a couple of attorneys who are purposely trying to stir the pot, but for the most part, When it's just attorneys, they're more measured. I feel like family law has a lot of emotionality, both with the attorneys and the litigants.

And so I try to tell my clients, , you don't want me to be emotional. If I'm emotional, , it's not helping you. , it doesn't mean I don't care. It doesn't mean I'm not a zealous advocate, because I probably care more than most. But it doesn't mean I get emotional about it. There's a difference between caring and being emotional.

I care about the outcome and I want the best result, but I'm not going to throw a temper tantrum and call people names [00:10:00] and, which happens, no.

your law license or risk your

my reputation. Yes.

Oh, reputation. That's a big one. That's the most valuable thing that we have and I won't go into court, actually I have a case coming up. That client has the most unreasonable expectations I've heard in a while, but I said , I will not make these arguments in court because I am going to go back there, I'm 45, for the next 20 years.

And I'm not going to make an argument that is going to ruin my credibility with the court. It's my reputation. It goes back to saying to that client, that is not reasonable. That is not a reasonable expectation. So again, if your attorney is telling you, yep, okay, sure, short of , the other side is an ax murderer and they're never going to see the kid again, okay, fine, that's fair.

But in the bell curve of normal, your attorney should be helping navigate the process and give you reasonable expectations. It's not a good idea to go in. And try to get every quote unquote, everything you can the way that you're saying it and the punitive process, because really that's also, here's another ism don't make decisions in emotion, right?

If you [00:11:00] are making a decision because you're hurt or angry, either to be punitive or to just say, okay, I'll give him or her everything they want just to go away. It's a decision in emotion. That's not the way to make a decision. You need time to pass. I mean, hell, it's a good advice, even for your kids. My one kid said, I want to quit this sport.

And I said, fine, quit on a good day. Don't quit on a bad day. It's a bad day. You're not quitting because then you're just acting in emotion. You want to quit on a good day. That's a different discussion. So if you want to give the other side more than quote unquote your lawyer is telling you on a good day, meaning months have passed and you've processed fine, but don't make decisions in emotion.

There is a reason. Why this process is takes a while. It should. It's a good thing to take a while. And, and I'm talking about asset division in particular, but sometimes even in other ways. 

of the other ones. I feel like I say a lot is, you picked him. So I, I had a client one time tell me, why does he or she get more time? [00:12:00] Why does he or she get to do this? I'm like, why doesn't he? Right? So like, or she. Why doesn't he or she get that?

And I said to this client, what you're really telling me is you regret who their parent is and you wish they were a different person and you wish they were fill in the blank, whatever the thing is. And she said, you're right. And I was like, I get it. I do. This is not the person that you wish this person turned out to be, but you picked them.

That's the parent of your child. And if you can separate that a little bit, you'll be further along than the rest of the world. And I credit that client significantly because I'm sure what I said was hard for her to hear, but it was the truth, you know, she was really trying to say, I wish he was a better parent as opposed to why does he get more time?

I, I get it. I do. But he's still the parent. So

So he had more time, but she wasn't happy with like the way things were going

when they were together? 

He had some time and didn't like certain things that he, or I think it was a he in that case, was doing.

And I was like, okay, well, the court's not going to micromanage that because you've got to think about it. Like, do you want the court to micromanage you? So if you want to micromanage the [00:13:00] other side, it's got to go both ways. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be micromanaged. She was like, why does he basically get to, , have his house run the way he wants to?

In other words, she didn't like how it was run. She doesn't like how he supervises. He doesn't like how he disciplines. He doesn't like fill in the blank. And so I said, well, look, the court's not here to micromanage. You're just telling me you don't like the kind of parent he is. I get that, but that's who it, that's who it is.

it. So we were just talking about screen time before we started podcasting. So it would be like if the other parent allows unlimited screen time and you don't agree with that, that's not really something that you can Mm

Mm mm. Micromanage. I don't think I've ever seen the court put anything in about screen time.

I've had people argue that they being whatever side, shouldn't get more time because they're always in front of the iPad and that doesn't go anywhere. Similar to the food, we talked a lot about food such as, , he or she feeds Wendy's, Chick fil A, Burger King, McDonald's, fill in the blank.

I don't know. It doesn't matter. The courts are parents, the courts are people, and they've also fed their kids Chick fil A or red velvet cake.

[00:14:00] You had a child with this person who chooses to take them to Chick fil A on their time. And you just kind of have to come to terms with the fact that that's what their time's going to look like.

The issue about time is what is the best interest of the children, right?

That's been the standard for the end of time. So it's not healthy meals, but are they feeding them? If you're telling me they're not feeding them repeatedly, okay, well, that's a different discussion. If you're telling me they have severe mental health issues and anger issues and, all of the things that are out there, that doesn't mean everybody gets equal custody.

There's no presumption of 50 50 in Pennsylvania. We don't say you start at 50 50. Now some judges might in their head, and they might say to counsel behind the scenes, why isn't this 50 50? But there is no presumption of 50 50.

But the standards the courts are using are going to be can they feed them, not have they. So I have a lot of parents come in, I've been the only one to feed them for A hundred years, but can they, and it's not, can they feed them healthy meals that are cooked by, hand and homemade and all the things, it's can they feed them?

Can they [00:15:00] bathe them? Another client I had, she said, well, he didn't clean under the kid's nails and et cetera. And I was like, I'm not saying that and look, if your kids are not clean repeatedly, fine. But there was plenty of times when my kids were little, I'm like, Oh, you went swimming today? I'm like, great. There's your,

just,

your bath.

It is a path in the summer.

I'm like, yeah, you sweat with a bowl, you're good. Now, puberty, that's a different ball game. I am often a therapist in the, in the sense that I have to say, look, that's because you're upset with who they are, not because they're a bad parent.

And I do credit all those clients that are able to listen and process that. Cause it is hard thing to hear.

, you have to give up that control because it's not your time. 

I have my new favorite quote right now, Michelle Obama, I'm giving you the credit, maybe we'll be friends one day, but it was, you practice what you want to be, right? If you whine, you're practicing being a whiner.

You want to be successful, then you've got to practice being successful, which is, , doing the things to get you there. You can practice what you want in your house, and your kids are going to figure it out. So if you want to practice being a healthy eater, then you be the healthy eater in your

When they look back, they're going to remember that you were putting that [00:16:00] effort in and not just taking them to fast food all the time.

Right. And they might remember that, mom always took them to Chick fil A, but they'll also remember that mom was doing her best, right?

Practice what you are, so you worry about you. You do you and your time. You do your best and whatever your best is, your best, and you practice what you want to be and your kids will see that. , I can't tell my kids not to look on their screens all the time.

If I'm on my screens all the time, I can't say pick up a book if I'm not picking up a book. We practice what we want to be. I want to be a reader, so therefore I read, , if you want to feed healthy then feed healthy. Don't look to the other side to fix the problems that you're struggling with, right?

Again, a lot of this is easier said than done 

it's that loss of control, which I can imagine would be really hard.

And that is a big issue, especially with the kids being younger and the inability to communicate. , the control issues are real.

Your lawyer should help you kind of figure out like what's behind that. What's behind that is usually you're sad about the divorce and you're sad about the time you're losing with your kid. All legitimate, all valid, all of those feelings, but that's not to be the determinative factor in how your kids spend time with that.

So long as they're [00:17:00] obviously capable, you know, so sometimes I'll say, well, in a quote unquote normal case, there is no normal, normal people are the ones who can get through the day without drinking or using drugs

but there are cases like that. I had a consult today where that was happening on a regular basis. And I said, in a normal case, I would be telling you. fill in the blank. However, in your case, I'm here to tell you we need to pare that back. He needs to have limited time. We need to figure out , how much he's using.

How much is he drinking? How much, , mental health issues are we struggling with? What's the safety issues from the things that I heard? So the normal is people being able to function on a daily basis. But there's a lot that aren't, not to say they're abnormal, but they're just not the typical.

So it just depends on your case.

And we've talked about before, that's where a good attorney comes in and gives you the perspective because you get to see all this stuff. You get to hear all these different stories and you get to sit in court and listen to what's going on out there. And if it's just me and my little world, I don't know what this quote unquote standards are.

So you can give that realistic expectation, 

Chick

A is okay because they're not , [00:18:00] Starving them for three days in a

Well, and that's exactly right. So then I tell people, so especially in Chester County, there's a lot of judges that hear family and criminal. Or dependency cases, which the foster care system has brought in.

So, the standards in which our courts are hearing, we hear some horrible things. I just read about it, I don't think this was in our county, but a foster child who was.

Sixteen and looked as if he was six because his foster parents starved him. I think it was a him. So severely. That's what our courts are hearing. So not to suggest that we're putting you up against that standard, but you got to remember what we're hearing on a regular basis.

Another ism is know your audience. So that's what we're hearing. taking out the kid part, because that's highly emotional. My, what I'm known for, haha, is get a job, right? So that's one of my other isms. But I say that because know your standard, know who your audience is, right? So when you're going into court and you're saying, I can't work because I have three kids, well, guess what?

The hearing officer has five or the judge has three. I [00:19:00] can't think of any person here in custody cases right now or support cases or family court in general that doesn't have children. So if you're going to go into court and say you can't work, guess what? So did they. And there's a lot of women. There's now more women on the Chester County bench, I believe, than men.

I'm 95 percent sure of that. And I say that because they're all, I think they're all parents. So they've all been working. So don't go into court and say you can't work because you have kids. Guess what? We all have kids. So know your audience. Same thing going back to like, not that your standard is starving your children, but this is what they've heard.

I'm sure there's some desensitization to things and it's not to, again, put that against your case, but that's why your attorney is important. Needs to know, needs to guide you, and sometimes it's judge specific, right? So some judges are going to be like, mm mm, they're not going to be receptive to that because they've heard about the child starved.

Some might be more receptive. Know who you're talking to, which is why I generally don't travel out of county because I know my audience. I don't know my audience in every other county. I just was emailing another co worker, my new co worker, my new partner actually, about someone not [00:20:00] working.

And she was like, well, I don't really want to work either. And I was like, but do you really not want to work? And she was like, no, , of course, some days you don't want to go to work, but you got to get a job. You got to support yourself. 

I feel like a lot of these things come from TV and pop culture. And this , well, I want to maintain my lifestyle. And of course, there's also the issue of every state is different.

So like maybe some states, maybe you can not work and they do hold that up. But Do you think it's kind of an old fashioned thing that just like hasn't died out that I'm a stay at home mom and I deserve my lifestyle to be maintained?

the lifestyle is an actual factor.

It's not to dispute that as a factor, but more often than not, and I don't have a statistic, but more often than not, the parties were struggling as an intact household. So now you're going to go to households on the same amount of income. 

Alimony is the needs based approach in Pennsylvania. You not only have to show that you need it, but you also have to show that they can afford it, right? It's not just, I need [00:21:00] this. It's can the other side afford to give that amount and They still afford their living expenses.

I get it. Living style is important. They're the ones they see on TV. I don't know. . I don't watch any reality TV, but you watch more. They probably have millions and millions of dollars. So that comes back to people going, what's the standard amount of child support for two people, two kids?

I don't know. What's your income? It depends, right? So it's an income driven analysis and child support. It's income driven and you know, Spousal support, APL, and alimony, and that you need to have the money to go around. So, I hear you meaning people who say, I should be able to, I, I can't fix that because there's not enough money to do that.

If there's enough money and you don't have to work, have at it, don't work. If I had enough money and I didn't have to work, I wouldn't, I'd probably still work, but, but I, I understand your point, but. Usually there's not enough money to go around. And

When I was thinking maybe it's more old fashioned, maybe it is from back when you could kind of live on a single income and, now in this It's really hard to do that, to not have dual income households anymore,

Well, I will tell you, I'm living it right now. We are not meant to have two full time working [00:22:00] households and kids. I, I struggle. Trust me.

When I give you all these things, I'm struggling behind the scenes. It's hard. I'm not necessarily, doing my best at every point. So I hear you. It is not normal to have two full time working parents and three kids. I need help. I get it. I'm not saying this is easy. But on the flip side, you If I want to live the lifestyle that I want to live, I got to contribute.

Yeah, it is probably a more antiquated and I've been known to say the trash is still the man's job in the house, but guess what? I take out the trash. So I'm saying that in jest. And Steve, had said to me at one point, I think it was right after we had Kieran and I was working, working, but not much.

He said, you don't have to work until Kieran's in sixth grade. That's what his mom did but A

I know the lifestyle, meaning I want to take vacation and I want to be able to go places.

But what really nudged it over the edge is we moved and the house had an island that needed Barstools. And I said to Steve, I'm like, I want to buy barstools. And he said, we can't afford it. And I was like, [00:23:00] I was like, I'm a lawyer. I want to be able to buy barstools. I wasn't talking about diamonds.

I was talking about barstools. And I was like, well, here we go back to work. I'm not going to not work. And I say this lovingly, like, honestly, I'm not going to not work. And I say this lovingly, like, honestly, I feel like it's better for my personal life, as hard as it is right now, or my self esteem to be an independent individual.

I don't think I'd be as good of a parent. Sometimes I don't have the energy, which is another problem, but I think it's good to have a definition of yourself other than wife and mother or husband and father. , trust me, I've had people come in and they have millions and millions and millions, and that's a different discussion. It's not so much about what your lifestyle is, it's kind of, Well, A, could you afford it when you were intact? And usually the answer is not. Usually the people are, you know, not able to then. So then how do you expect it to go when you are down to one income, which also goes back to like staying in the workforce keeping your foot in.

I think you and I are the perfect example of, you know, for a while we kept our piggy toes in maybe our full, full, full foot while we were having kids, but it helps [00:24:00] both of us stay in the work field workforce and get on our feet. So.

Part-time, part-time work?

Well, I didn't realize part time work was a thing when I left the DA's office.

I didn't think it

I wish it was more of a thing. I think that that we wanna solve the, parenting crisis. I feel like a lot of it is to allow women with careers to continue their careers part-time

It's not just about part time, it's about flexibility or acknowledging, the times like I might not see somebody, but if they're getting their work done especially as professionals.

Not everyone has the luxury of being quite that flexible. But I do wish there were more , like they were accountants out of college or they were in finance, and then they go and have kids and they don't want to come back 40 hours a week.

And there's not that many options to say, but I can do 20.

But I also didn't know to ask.

When I did get a part time lawyering job, the pay was, It was pennies. And then when I was working more than it was intended to, they did give me a slight bump, but I kept working more and the pay wasn't changing.

So if you are going to work part time, make sure you're getting

well. That is what also happened to me. Yes. Yes. So I guess our [00:25:00] advice is ask 

another one I say all the time you have to have a boundary. So if your boundary is, you can't see the kids if you look like you're under the influence, which is a easy one to have, although hard to distinguish meaning like, how do you know if someone's under the influence other than the smell of alcohol?

But you have to be the one that says, no, you are drunk. There's no custody police. . But similarly on like a part time job, like you're the one policing your time. You're the one who says, look, I've worked my 30 hours this week. I cannot do any more. And, you know, it's about enforcing your boundaries.

Right now in my own work and home, like I feel like I don't have any boundaries.

And that's because I've a lot of changes, but everybody has to do it.

I always say work does not come first. Your family comes first. Your life comes first. I within reason.

I

I think you come first. We are not good moms, dads, employees, co workers, whatever, unless we are doing our best. I personally, , I'm trying to manage kids.

I'm trying to go on vacation, but work, but also have them have their friends out. And then I'm trying, and I'm [00:26:00] spent, because I'm not looking out for me first. So. I brought my running clothes. I'm going to go running later today. That's how I'm looking out for me first. I give the advice, but I take it myself.

You have to enforce those boundaries even if you're not part time, if you're full time and you're drowning, no one knows.

Speak up.

Live your life. And, don't live for the next day, live in the moment, but know that you need to be balanced, whatever that balance is.

The elusive balance.

But if you're focused on it, you're going to find it more or be closer to it than not. So somehow we went from isms, but this, they're all just kind of philosophies on how we all as people, not just in family law, but we all have to try to balance. It's all about bettering ourselves for everybody else, right?

So it's all about bettering yourself for those around you.

And relationships, all different

All of them. Yep.

the, with your ex, whoever, it's a relationship.

Whether you like it or not. You're stuck with them. Yep. It

is. Not every relationship is a good relationship. 

One that I said to somebody and they, they referred another client to me because of this was marry [00:27:00] someone, you'll be okay divorcing.

That was one of

'em. Oh yeah. We have a whole episode on that. ,

on that. Yes. Because , if they're a dick when you're dating or they're a dick to others and you're like, Oh, they're just mean to the, the server when they brought, you know, chicken soup instead of chicken noodle soup, they're going to be a dick to you during your.

Separation, divorce, whatever. You need to know what that person is going to be like at their worst because divorce is your worst.

And

Like if they can be like that to other people, they can be like that

you. Absolutely. You are not unique. You are not unique.

might be worse because they have. Way higher expectations

and they also know you better. So they know your soft spots and they know where to push and they You know, you learn a lot about people and they're

hurt, they might be more

Oh yeah.

really push

Yeah. Yeah, people at their worst, it's why they say family law is good people at their worst and I've often heard criminal law is bad people at their best. So it's true, you know, and I, as I said in the beginning, I had to go through my own business [00:28:00] divorce and trust me, I have, I give myself all of these same pep talks and let's say I did it perfectly, but I, you know, did my best and so I, I definitely have a different perspective, but it all goes back to just trying to be.

improve who we are because we can only control ourselves.

How do you usually end your consults 

The question is usually how much is it going to cost? And then the answer is, it depends. And if your lawyer gives you a quote, they don't know. So that's not true. So then I usually explain it depends, depends on how litigious, depends on, you the complications of your case, et cetera or they'll say what are the next steps with retaining you.

So the next steps in retaining your lawyer should be a fee agreement that specifies the agreement and that which you're paying them and then a retainer amount. And that also depends on the case. And then you pay the retainer, you sign the fee agreement, and now you're a client. So that's the typical process.

I have questions about conflicts. Does that get done pre consult? So you don't even have a consult with someone with a conflict.

Yeah, you do the conflict check first. And I think there's a case that says a [00:29:00] consult alone is not a conflict but for practical purposes, most attorneys, a consult will, for me, it will.

If I have a consult with one, I'm not doing a consult with the other.

And that's another thing people are like, why do you want to know who the other person is?

Because we're doing a conflict check. We're not calling anybody. We're not finding out. No one needs to know. We need to know who the parties are so we can run it through the system.

For example, in my new firm, if there was somebody who was going to represent one of my good friends, I, it's not necessarily a conflict, but I might let them know that that's a good friend of mine, and if they were adverse to that person, that might be a problem.

But for example, some law firms represent police departments or their solicitors for the township. So that could be a conflict type of thing. So it's not just person to person. It can be who, if you represent an organization or so

. So it's slightly more complicated, but for me, it's still just people. I don't represent businesses.

It's a rabbit hole of rules of professional responsibility, but they are important and we follow them and we do all the things.

lawyers have ruled, you made rules upon rules upon rules for yourselves.

That's one of my other favorite things. Ready? We can just keep [00:30:00] going. Are we over lawyering this? So I just emailed that to my office today. We were looking over a document, and I said, Are we over lawyering it?

this? Over lawyered everything.

My pet peeve as a marketing person is that we can't say that you're a specialist.

We can't say that you're an expert because lawyers at some point must have written that into the rules.

That's correct. That is in the rules. And I actually told a lawyer one time who posted on her social media, we are an expert. And I called her. I was like, you can't do that. And she was like, Oh, so yeah,

Everyone else can be experts but not lawyers.

Nope, we are not. We are not allowed to promote ourselves as such. And, and actually, before we take the bar exam, we have to take the ethics exam. 

, that's such a weird thing.

What part?

The expert specialist thing.

Before I would say, I don't know what year, but like my dad and Steve's dad who are.

My dad's 77 and Steve says 86. Something like that. They were more generalists. Mm-Hmm. . And I think

So you practiced everything.

back then. I think that was much more common. Now it's much more specific. Yeah. You can say specific, I think

[00:31:00] Specific, we say focus a lot. Focus. Focus area. 

I do think we're always learning. I learn something all the time, so I can understand that reasoning.

but doctors can still specialize. That's true. And they practice medicine,

We do practice the law and they practice medicine.

, I am not an expert nor a specialist.

I just focus solely on family law.

And are very good at

Well, that's sweet and kind. Thank you. It depends on who you ask. I guess when I'm hated that means I'm doing a good job, right? My friend who's a judge and I were texting about this crazy man who hates us and is crazy and she goes, Well, you're not doing your job if you don't have haters.