MIC2
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[00:00:00] Alright, Julie. How are things going?

I'll start with the new firm. It's funny because it's so different, but it's exactly the same. But it's going well. I took off last week and I did something I don't normally do, which is I truly checked

the fuck out.

I came back to 500 emails most of them I got to get rid of because people were handling it. But it's a good lesson that I have to remind myself and everybody, like truly take your time off because I feel like a much better person

where did you go on your time off?

I was supposed to go to Bermuda. Hurricane Ernesto hit the island.

We were supposed to leave on Friday the 16th. The hurricane was going to make a direct hit, which I heard did on the 17th. 

my plane took off. the plane going to Bermuda on the Friday took off. Anyway, I wasn't risking that. So, we're postponing it. Next summer will be one hell of a summer. We have Bermuda. at the end of June, because we just postponed it. We had to pay for it. we'll still do a week in Ocean City, New Jersey, but then we go to Europe

Oh, [00:01:00] with the kids?

well, Kieran's soccer team goes for about a week and a half.

So we'll take an extra week to go. Cause once you get into the soccer thing, it's just nonstop for like eight or nine days. So we'll go a little bit early and experience a couple other places. So that's where the summer's been. Kids, girls started high school. There was a couple tears, 

always think the idea of high school is scarier than it actually is. I remember thinking high school was going to be such a big building, but then by the first couple weeks, it's like, eh, it's not that

What I said to them, I was like, there's a reason no one wants to do high school again. but everybody wants to do college again, pretty much. you got to get through high school to get to college.

like you said, it gets better. 

they seem pretty fine now, but I'm not too micromanaging as long as they're alive.

I'm liking having a routine.

I'm at work by eight. It's nice.

Yeah, routine is

Routine is good. We wanted to do a podcast today

Yes, so I'm very fired up because, this is the scoop. A lot of people come in [00:02:00] and they want to do the scorched earth, right? for example he never made food for the kid and he never did the bath.

and he never, and he never, and he's the worst and he's this and this whatever. On the other end it's, she doesn't work and she doesn't do this and she doesn't do that and she's, , whatever. It's just critical. And look, that's probably why you're divorced 'cause you, you criticizing each other to the end of time.

a lot of people come in. And they think the way to get custody is to prove the other person to suck barring serious issues and serious needs to be defined the normal person, I'll call them standard, typical, it's not to say that if you're not in this bell curve you're abnormal, but just the ones in the middle.

You don't need to be scorched earth, it's insane. So the ones where there's drug issues, or alcoholism, or serious, and I mean serious mental health, not normal mental health, like depression and anxiety, you might have a different approach. But for the most part, the way to get what you want is [00:03:00] actually the opposite of what people think.

They come in thinking of you mean, what the reality is, if you come in with a positive approach, regardless of your position, you're going to make. More progress. So for example, I have a case right now that's going to trial I wasn't handling the case originally. I had an associate working on it, and when the whole law firm change happened, 

the client said they want to come back to me. I read the pretrial statement, which is required to be filed before. It was. Unbelievably critical of things that were just not necessary.

Can you back up? a pretrial statement is what?

A written document that you file with the court before you go to trial.

both sides have to do it.

And then when you go to a conference in front of the judge, they have a written document. at least in Chester County, it's max three pages and it's the summary of your case, what you want, your witness list and your exhibits.

And usually it's more time is spent on like, do you really need to call grandmom and grandpa? the courts don't want duplicative witnesses, right? Or why [00:04:00] are we calling the pediatrician? Can't you guys stipulate to medical

So who goes back and forth? 

The judge and the attorneys, right?

And so with two good attorneys, you limit the amount of witnesses It's just more to keep things moving, but that way the judge knows your positions and your case. So they're not walking in blind. I'm guessing that it's the law clerk who reads the pretrial statements and gives the judge a quick summary.

I'm sure some of them read the full thing, but that's part of what it is. So

pre trial statement that was written for your client.

correct, that was not written by me. It was written by another attorney and it was very critical. I would just say 

It was disappointing to see how the approach was to criticize this mother, because I represent father in this case. Frankly, because of the way that it was worded

and

the way that case started, the mom was equally disappointed.

You know, not being cooperative and doing things that, whether or not it was chicken or the egg, whether she was that way because she was difficult and he, who started it, I don't know. All I know is I only know what my side has and it [00:05:00] was not the way to handle this

So did it feel like it was nitpicking small

Oh my god,

On the flip side though, going from his perspective, this is a good example of, and the attorney on the other side acknowledges, this is a mom who won't let go.

And on his end, he's going, I'm an equal parent. just because during the marriage I was working and you were home doesn't mean I'm not an equal parent. I think a lot of people need to get behind in their heads. What happened intact does not mean that's what happens in the future.

Is it something to go over in court? Sure. But it's not what you have done so much as what can each person do? so if mom is not going to,

do

things for school or for the sports because she's shown that she won't. That's different than what she's done during the marriage.

I'm using that because Steve's the sports guy at my house. I don't know when the uniforms are ordered. But can I do it? Sure. Will I? Yes, of course. So it's not so much what I did as much as what can I do and am I capable of doing it? Of course, most people are capable of the basic needs for your kid.

So, so his response could be [00:06:00] in part to her being so Clingy, for lack of a better word, to primary. it's again, the chicken or the egg. Was he being nitpicky because she was being like, it's, you know, my kid and, and this is a case where there's one child and I hate those cases because these kids are stuck in the middle.

It's like pulling on this kid's arms, the proverbial pull and the poor kid's in the middle even though he doesn't necessarily know he's in the middle, I'm sure he can feel it. He's little. that's where attorneys have the ability and a lot of clients might not like it.

you don't pay us to tell you what you want to hear, what you need to hear. So I go into the pretrial conference and I say to the other attorney who I respect a lot and I know that she's straight shooters, similar to how I think I am, like I'm not going to play hide the ball.

I said, Look, I read the pretrial and that's not how we're doing this. I'm coming into court. I'm going to tell you how great of a mom she is. And how great of a dad he is, because frankly, these are two good parents who should be raising their kids equally, period. whatever was said, that's not the course we're taking.

And she said, this is everybody's perception is their reality. [00:07:00] I am so relieved to hear you say that because I was ready to have to respond in kind And I said, look, they're both going to have things to pick on. Obviously if they thought they were wonderful, they probably wouldn't be in a divorce and going through custody, but you have to be able to see the positive.

the judge comes in and I said to the judge, I just want to be honest, I did not draft that pretrial. It's not that I don't respect the attorney who did. It's just not how I'm approaching this case. and she said to the other attorney, which is exactly what I wanted her to say.

Tell me why he shouldn't have 50 50. Right? So instead of the judge hearing the noise, the nonsense, the, you know, he traveled for work. Well, he doesn't anymore. He changed his schedule because he loves his kids. he

travel for work when there was an intact household.

He can't anymore, right? So that's the kind of stuff that can happen. I physically could see the attorney change . And I saw the judge now more towards, like, pushing that 50 50. So that's a good example of one client having primary and the other one wanting 50 [00:08:00] 50. And instead of going and nitpicking, I don't think that would have gotten them anywhere.

I think, the order would have probably stayed the same. Judge would order co parenting, which they need regardless. And it would have just been a waste of 25 to 30 thousand dollars. This approach, I think we're going to settle it. And even if we don't settle it, I feel confident telling my client that that's an investment he should make because there's never a guarantee, but it looks like 50 50 on the flip side, if I was representing.

Mom, from the get go, and I'll use a different case, if she wants to keep primary, I'm going to say to her, look, you need to say why you're great at being these kids primary parent, but also why he's great at being their parent, but to the extent that it's better for them to stay with you for whatever the reason is.

Maybe it's distance I did have a case a couple weeks ago. Dad lives like 40 minutes from the kids school. I went into the conference and I'm like, look, he's a good dad, he loves his kids. But you know, the kids are going to school. They shouldn't be getting up 45 minutes extra early 

and we won one. I mean, we resolved it because the approach was not, he's the devil and [00:09:00] she's the angel. So it was a good example of like the, the approach can either put people in corners or put people at a place of getting closer and no matter what position you're in trying to keep or gain custody.

It honestly is the same approach regardless, regardless, because the positive approach is going to give you not only credibility, but it's going to focus on the right things. So I think maybe it's just. A light switch in some way. I mean, I've always had that. I can, I always think of this one case and use it as an example where again, I represented a dad.

We went to court for 50 50 and I brought in a binder, like 300 pages thick. we always come into court with these text messages of like, fuck you, motherfucker, you know? But I brought in this binder and I was like, here are 300 pages of them communicating well.

There's 300 pages of them working together for these kids, and that's what got them 50 50. So I've always had that approach, but the more that I'm seeing the divisiveness, and frankly, the more I'm seeing the judges get closer and closer to 50 50, not as a default, but as kind of the starting point, [00:10:00] I'm just getting more frustrated with the approach of scorched earth, because again, it goes back to how it's going to affect the kids in the long run.

You know, the case that I'm pending trial, how does that start your co parenting when you start your First year of separation in a custody trial, mudslinging. So yeah, I think the approach for both attorneys and the parties is to stop focusing on the negative because you're going to get further.

I mean, you have the drugs, the mental health, serious issues, I was just in court on a guy who was terrible. He called the cops, pushed a girl out of custody exchange. He doesn't even have overnights, right?

So that's you fight those battles. But the ones you don't have to fight stop. So that's my new thing, because I'm just seeing so much scorched earth unnecessarily, and it doesn't work. That's the part that's crazy. It doesn't work.

Could you give some examples of reframing from something negative to something positive? Kind of like you said with traveling. If one of the things is like, Oh, he travels so much for work, but the nice thing [00:11:00] to say is , but he's rearranged his schedule so that he can this.

long as it's true. So like, you know, custody courts here all the time. I have a flexible schedule.

Well, Back it up, right? when I've had cases like that, I've actually had their employers, when it comes down to testimony, testify or have a letter from your employer that says, I am aware that there is a change in circumstances So, you know, if it's a new case, because the people are more in the mindset of what was happening during the marriage.

the person who's the traveler has to realize that the parent on the other side still sees that person as the traveler. And the other one is the one who's doing all the parenting, but on the flip side, you have to also see from the non travel, the non traveler has to see like that person has changed because they want to be around their kid, 

it always goes back to whenever people are giving people some rope, they're either going to hang themselves or be a great parent. Either way you win. if they're a great parent, they're a great parent. And you're done or they're going to suck and they've hung themselves.

So a reframe is more, if the traveling, I'm going to go, yeah, he did travel, for work. There's nothing wrong with that. But because of the change, he has [00:12:00] changed that to the best of his ability. And here's proof of that. 

That's why I always tell people to get a job because, you know, it is not uncommon for people to come in and say, she hasn't worked. And then if I have a client, I go, guess what? She's gotten a part time job. It might be a day and a half, but she's doing it, or she's working on it.

It gives the credibility to, the reframe. It's not that she was not, of course, no stay at home mom is really eating bonbons, so it shouldn't be criticized, but the point is that it's looking at the positive part of it, right?

Yeah, she stayed home, but usually, it's 99 percent of the time, she who stays home, you, sir, in that situation would not be where you were if not for her efforts. However, when I'm representing her, instead of saying that she, could say she's not going back to work.

She doesn't want, and it's a negative, the courts want to see you get back on your feet. that's why when people come in, and I have this woman recently, she came in and said, kids like a year and a half, they're getting separated. And she's like, I've already, she was a teacher. I've already reached out to the school districts.

I've already done this. And I was like, You're the best. Cause I can go in and [00:13:00] say, this is a person who sees. But she's going to get herself back on her feet. 

And it's also goes to help the kid. Cause you need to give your kids a hundred percent. no one's a hundred percent all the time, but you need to give them your best, both in your ability to support them financially, emotionally, all of that stuff.

So it's just more focusing on the positive, right? Like people have mental health issues and they come in and hang their head in shame because they're on Wellbutrin. And I go, no, that's the positive, you know? 

okay, you're not crazy if you're on Wellbutrin, number one. And it's a positive cause she's helping herself or he's helping herself or you know, another case recently, the woman was bipolar and she was like, I'm bipolar. He knows it. I'm on medication. I'm in treatment, And that's all they want to hear.

It's not only acknowledging the fact, but also recognizing it in a positive way to get things moving forward. Because all that happens when you fight is either you go backwards or you get stuck in the mud. And then again, it goes back to the only people who benefit are the lawyers.

So if I wanted, trial coming up, I could turn the shit out of that. I could be like, pay me your 30, 000 retainer. I can try a case in my sleep at this point, especially a mom dad custody case. I'll just [00:14:00] get the factors, ask the questions,, but I don't, that's not to my benefit. there are attorneys who will do that, but the good ones will say, no, don't do that. So I'm hoping thatat least in Chester County, I'm seeing some turnover. people are retiring, there's a drought of attorneys.

I'm desperate for like two lawyers to hire. hopefully the turn is to be more pro family as opposed to divisive pro family, meaning longterm, these people are still your family. Like I said, in the conference yesterday, this kid's like three or three and a half, I explained to my client, he has to co parent for another 15 years, but not really 15 years, more like forever, but 15 years where you're required to, 

And I said, the judge actually was like, yeah, they're going to have weddings and, you know, whatever. I go, forget the weddings. Go to the soccer field. I want them to be able to stand next to each other on the soccer field and cheer together. And when their kid scores a goal, he can look at his parents together and not have to look at either ends of the field to see them not standing together.

Attorneys should have the goal [00:15:00] of getting those people to stand on the sidelines together. They don't have to like each other. but you got to. Fake it till you make it in front of those kids. And we as attorneys can make that happen or we can make it not happen.

I,

I have seen more seasoned attorneys be negative. I'm hoping that we're turning a corner I consider myself in the middle. I'm 20 years out. I'm not young, but I'm not old. 

Yeah, I would think if. Your attorney was 

fanning the flames. You would feel more justified because you're like this attorney seen a million cases and they're saying that I'm right, you know, and that would make you feel instead of your attorney being like, well, let's look at it from the other perspective rather than being like, Yeah, you're right.

They're terrible. Let's go 

Well, and some of them are.

I mean, I'll say of all my cases, I might have like, 20 percent that I think are truly, not the best to be with their kids as much as the other. I'll just put it that way. But yeah, I think there's a lot of attorneys who say things in court to just needle the other person [00:16:00] and

And of course you're going to react because

Of course!

they're attacking your character right like a lot of times it's not just a one time maybe you fed your kid cake for dinner like we've talked about before but it could be you have mental health issues that you haven't taken care of or you do this and you know 

In family law, people are trying their best. there's not many people who are truly, like, wacky. that might be 20 percent that I see, two things pop into my mind, even if it's appropriate, because the a whack job for lack of a better word, what is that helping? you as the person need to get out of your own way and find somebody who's going to get your family moving forward, not backwards.

you need somebody who's going to tell you, no, that's not reasonable. 

you know,

it's not easy to hear. I get it. But you have to be in control of your own life what path do you want to be on? Do you want to be on a path when you you allow an attorney to attack the person that you chose to have a child?

With that is that person's parent you need to be nice to them. I mean, come on. This is like kindergarten [00:17:00] stuff the other thing that popped in my head is, I can always tell when an attorney has training in the DA's office or PD's office, I don't know if I was ever explicitly taught, but you're taught, whether through experience or literal teaching, that when the jury comes back, you don't show emotion, think about it as a prosecutor.

If someone was, when I got a guilty, I wasn't like, you know, because That's still, whether or not it was deserved, obviously I would say it was deserved if I was prosecuting him, still someone's life, right? There's a difference in how you react when you have that training. it's almost like more respect for the courtroom,

you're not gloating,

no gloating. Yeah. So like when a jury came in and convicted someone of like I think the most serious I tried was an attempted homicide, like actually tried.

You know, I didn't, there's nothing happy about that and you're taught to not have a reaction. You talk to your victim the family and all the things. the training is important. no one benefits, especially the families with that type of needling approach.

Even really, it's not necessary. And then the ones who are crazy, like if you need a loan, it's only going to make it worse. why would you [00:18:00] do that?

It's also don't engage in it. I give my clients advice all the time. Don't engage. I had a hearing recently, the guy was representing himself at one point he's on the phone, I'm on the phone with him because the police were, this was the police were there and I was like sir, let's not have the police involved.

Your kids are there. and I think he was like, you know, fuck you, fuck you. What was I going to do? Go fuck you, fuck you right back? And I was like, okayI'm done with you. I'm not engaging in it. I was at the Ocean City Boardwalk this year and someone started motherfucking me and I was like, okay, you're going to have a good day.

Goodbye. I could have gotten back to him and been like, you're a fucking crazy man.

That's what they

going to do? They want, that's exactly right. It's why it's don't engage. Cause that's what they want. They want a reaction.

So that they can turn around and say, She yelled at me on the phone, 

yeah, exactly. But that's also why I never talk to people who represent themselves I do it in writing.

I implore attorneys to try to change the approach because it's only hurting the kids on the flip side as litigants pick an attorney who's going to look long term and not, the things that really aren't important, especially like when people are like, well, he had a DUI and [00:19:00] 20, you know, I'm like, well, yeah, you married him in 2015, so I don't give a shit.

you can't marry somebody who had a DUI 10 years or 5 years ago and then complain later. How are you to reduce litigation? You focus on the things that are positive when you lift somebody else up, you lift yourself up.

And if it's the parent of your kid, don't you want your kid to know that there's something The other side.

If they're safe, don't you want the break? Single parenting is hard.

so I said in this court conference the other day, because we were not on the record. We were doing a schedule, and Mother's Day came up, and, you know, Mom gets Mother's Day, and I go, Why, don't you want him to have Mother's Day? And the judge was like, I've always wanted someone to say that, and I'm like, yes.

I think it goes back to. People are hurt and they punish each other through the kids. I don't think they do it knowingly. I don't think that's like, I'm going to punish him or her by the kids, but if someone said to me, you're a terrible parent, what am I going to do?

if you're like, yeah, you're a pretty good parent. What is the person gonna say? Oh, okay. And then you said, but I still think I should have, you know, I'll use my kid's names, [00:20:00] Molly Moore, because I live closer to the school 

That person might be like, yeah, you're right. Well, if you go, you suck. What are you going to do? Fuck you, you suck. And then it goes the you suck back and forth. it's not helpful. focus on your positive.

Focus on, those types of things. the factors are obviously abuse drug and alcohol and mental health. Those are all factors. So you touch on them. It's not to say that you don't address them, but it's not to say that is your focus. in most cases, 

if the person is proactively trying to help those

or if they're the same person they were when you had a kid with them, shut up. You had the kid with them. Don't complain to me now. Don't come to me three years later actually, the one client, I give her credit, because sometimes I say things to clients and I'm like, she's, she might fire me, but I don't care.

I don't, not that I don't care about the client, I care, I'm like, I just, I gotta do my job the way that I think is best. people mostly know that I've always said that, but I said over my dead cold body when I do family law,

And

that's true, but I find it so important because I, like seeing people fix things for their kids.

It's like, some generational trauma that I'm helping break. Anyway, the one client she was talking about [00:21:00] her children's father and, I said to her, you just don't like him and you really just wish he wasn't your kid's father. So let's just acknowledge that.

And she was like, you're right. so let's just focus on, exactly like I said, guess what? We got everything that we wanted it's not because I'm a magician, it's because we focused on the right things and the facts that were important to the court. at the end of that hearing that we had recently, she sent me a message and was like, I've been walking on eggshells for so long.

I'm so glad you told me to do this. I really appreciate it. And you were right. I didn't need to hear I was right, but it was good to know that my advice was solid and where it should be for the betterment of that client.

She was able to kind of see that in herself, like, oh, I see what she's

Yeah. Well, it also helped because I knew what to say. I didn't go into that court and say that dad should be supervised. There's no fucking way the judge was supervising him.

He's a wackadoodle a bit, but he's not, he's not unsafe to the children. when we started the case, I was like, no, we're not asking for supervision. We're asking for blah, blah, blah, she wanted me to ask for supervision, but I said, no, it's not appropriate. Judge won't do it. And the [00:22:00] judge did.

Just about everything I asked for, and it's not because, I'm a magician, it's because I knew what to ask for, I knew what to focus on, it's a good feeling on my end because sometimes attorneys say things and I'm like, what world are you in? I questioned myself, but then I have more, all the moments like that that I'm like, okay, you know, they're the, they're the ones who are making this into the OJ trial, which I have on Thursday.

So you probably have seen now, like, more of the millennial age start coming up and getting divorced and going through custody.

Like, in their

was on the phone with someone today and she's, she's like, I'm like, when were you born? She's, whatever. She's like, I'm 29.

Do you think that the younger millennials, in their thirties are better able to reflect on feelings I just feel like boomers want to fight, just be out of

Funny, I would actually say the

Really? Okay.

And that was just my gut. 

Younger people are digging their heels in more.

Yeah. And I don't know if it's social media.

Google telling me that I should keep custody

Okay, well then go have Google represent you. Like, I don't what to tell you. 

Don't get diagnosed by WebMD.

Okay. It's not a bad place to get some basic information. Sometimes I Google things but it's just, don't come in and tell me that you Googled [00:23:00] custody orders.com 

Go on Google and get some basic info Actually, I would suggest it, but don't come in and challenge my advice based on Google because A, I'm a person who's been doing it for a long time, and B, as I've said before, every county is not

Every state is different. 

every county is different, and knowing your audience, that's why I don't go out of county too much. going to that supervision case, I knew the judge. I knew what that judge would do and what he wouldn't do. So I was like, I'm not asking. I know he won't do it.

Period. And if I'm wrong, guess what? If I was wrong, he could still order it. Doesn't mean he can't order it, but I'd rather go in reasonable.

The trial that I have coming up, I knew she was not going to be for lack of a better word, anti 50 50, I just knew my audience.

I don't know Delaware County's audience the way that I know Chester County. Doesn't mean I can't do it, but I generally know the other, people better. Can't we all just get along? Seriously.

All right.

All right. 

Okay, bye.