
Lawfully Ever After
Lawfully Ever After
Control, Communication, and the Grass Isn't Always Greener
In this episode of Lawfully Ever After, Julie Potts, Esq. dives into emotionally charged scenarios pulled from Reddit that mirror the challenges of modern relationships and divorce.
From the rise of "gray divorces" to navigating unexpected separation, they explore the interplay of control, independence, and communication in marriages.
They discuss how societal shifts have influenced divorce trends, why emotions often cloud legal decisions, and how to approach difficult conversations with honesty and respect.
Whether you're seeking advice on co-parenting, understanding your partner’s perspective, or how to keep your identity while parenting, this episode offers relatable stories, legal insights, and timeless wisdom.
Listen in for heartfelt discussions, practical advice, and a few laughs along the way!
MIC2
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[00:00:00] Hi, Julie. Happy Saturday.
Hi, Em. Happy Saturday. Happy, hopefully, almost snow day.
Oh, yeah. Monday.
Well, I'm supposed to be in court an hour away. The one case I do out of
one case I do
So I'm hoping that I get a snow day.
day. Yeah. Fingers crossed. So we're going to do a what would Julie do today?
Okay.
I pulled these scenarios off of Reddit, my favorite site, but they're more emotional than I think we've done before.
So they're not so much questions about, you know, specific legal steps, but they're about what should I do, or , listen to my situation, and , is this crazy or not,
I feel like I'm a therapist probably more than I'm a lawyer. So this is probably consistent.
this will probably feel more like your typical consults.
All right, so this one's more of , An opinion slash observation, and I'm wondering your thoughts on it. So this person said, I've noticed a lot of boomers and Gen X are calling it quits after so many years invested.
I feel at this point in the [00:01:00] relationship, you've had every argument or disagreement there is to have. I refuse to believe after all that time and memories together, you can simply just grow apart. So why do you think there's this trend where? There's an increase in the later in life divorces. Are you seeing that trend?
Great divorce is a trend, I would say. Personally, I feel like I don't have as many as maybe I've heard of the trend.
I was just talking with another friend and I said I think it's too easy to get a divorce. So I think a couple of things, I forget , where the generations stop, but I know the boomers are the ones who are, born in 50s, 60s, I think.
Is that right?
Yeah, it was right after World War II,
II. Yeah, okay. So late 40s
40s to early 60s, I
60s, I think it's somewhat of an easy answer, and that is you as a woman, and I can't tell you the dates, I've read them, I can't tell you, but I think it was mid 70s, so you could get a credit card without your husband.
I mean, I always baffled that I think it was 1974, which was Virginia versus Loving, where the state of Virginia still banned biracial marriage, not relevant to the divorce issue, but the [00:02:00] restrictions on marriage and How hard it was to get a divorce. I mean, Pennsylvania statute changed in 1980 to make it quote unquote easier.
And even just recently, it reduced the time that you had to be separated before you can finalize without consent. I think it's just become that people are more independent. In particular, women. So 1950s, as we all probably have seen the stereotype, women stayed home, men worked. Women were dependent on men and therefore stuck.
If you couldn't get a credit card in the mid 70s, and you're born in the 50s, well, then you're 25, and you're not able to get your own independence. So I think the more independent women have become, I'm going to say women, because I think stereotypically it was always the women who were the dependent spouse
Well, it was quite literally only the women who couldn't get credit cards.
You had to have a husband to get certain credit.
Even checking accounts. women were forced to be dependent on men in a unique way that men were not forced to be dependent
on women.
Men have not had to be dependent. , women have. , my mom [00:03:00] got separated, I think it was , 1983, and she still had, hardships because of being a single woman. She's born in 1951.
Sorry, mom. But her mom told her that she has a choice between being a secretary and a nurse. She didn't even have a choice of like college and things like that. So to answer the question, I think number one, divorce has become easier. I do think it's somewhat too easy to be divorced. I don't mean that I think the government should restrict.
I think the government should stay out of your life, but I think people give up quicker. However, I think the change, especially with the older people, is the independence. So that's my answer.
Scenario number two. . My wife just called me and said she wants a divorce. It's out of the blue and we have two amazing kids. I absolutely love all of them and this is a huge struggle. She's been gone with the kids for the past month visiting family.
Then today she called and said she's done. I'm completely blindsided and I've never felt this hopeless before. For those that have been through this, what do you do? How do you get through this? through this. I want to fight for our family, but she said she's done and hung up on me.
So I think this is [00:04:00] hard because women in particular shove their feelings. They shove them, and they shove them, and they shove them, and they don't say what's bothering them.
There's an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where Deborah, who's the wife, says something along the lines of, like, once in a while, if I don't blow, I'm gonna go crazy. So I think in this situation my guess is this wife has been shoving her emotions, whatever they are and just is done.
And it's not uncommon. I think, I think statistically women are, are, are, the ones who end the marriage more than the men. I think women need to start expressing themselves. I was frustrated with my husband last night, and I said it, I said, I'm frustrated with you, and I am not happy with this decision. I had to get it out.
And I said that I have to say this to you, but I don't control you. I don't control your life. I'm going to support you, but I don't like it. I say that because it's hard. And I will tell you that was a change. Before I would have just socked it up and not said it. But if I want my marriage to work, then I have to figure out how to express myself. [00:05:00] So I think this guy, I'm sorry to hear, it, it's, it might not even be you.
It might just be that she has held up, held in her emotions about whatever it is. Maybe he should say like, look, I'm guessing you've been upset and holding things in for 10 years. I don't know what you're upset about, but I'm here to listen and I'm here to at least understand and maybe it'll work.
Maybe it won't. So in Pennsylvania, in the first 90 days from the divorce, you have the right to seek counseling under the statute. The court. shall order up to three, barring like a PFA and things like that. And I've had a few people exercise that right, but more because they want to understand.
They say, I don't, I don't necessarily need the person to want to be married to me anymore. I want to understand what happened. And I tell the other attorney in those situations, I'm like, I get it. They, they don't want to reconcile, but I think the divorce will go better if everybody knows why. So, anyway, I think it's because people hold their emotions in and don't talk, and they don't address their own underlying [00:06:00] issues, and it becomes a perfect storm, and then we're going through a divorce.
It does seem like closure is a good idea, especially when there's kids. Cause it's not like you can just be like, doop, done with you.
Never want to see you again. In most cases, you still have to see them at least for 18 years.
It's not uncommon. I mean this happens pretty often
That it feels out of the blue for
Yes.
So , there's no affair, there's no fighting, there's no abuse. It's just like one day they get a call like this.
Legit, I've had people get the quote unquote, Dear John letter.
Like, I'm sorry, this isn't working. I'm done. I think it goes with like, everybody has their shit. So you got to deal with your shit. And then you got to deal with how you're feeling because it's a relationship and friends. I have disagreements and fight fights or whatever you call it and you got to work through it and it's the same thing I think people are afraid to express how they're feeling.
I don't think most men even necessarily notice. Your body language might be showing one thing, but I think sometimes they're just kind of like well She didn't say she was mad So I guess she's not or it wasn't me because she would have told [00:07:00] me if it was me,
Look, women are fixers, too. , I've been saying this a lot to a lot of people, , stop trying to fix, stop, . Because you can't control people. ,
can you talk a little bit more about the court ordered counseling and how that works
Within the 90 days in Pennsylvania from the divorce filing. You can petition the court. And the court, it says, shall order up to three counseling sessions. Again, the exceptions are if the person is a victim of a crime or a PFA.
Those are the two I can remember off the top of my head. There may be more. So, but you have to do it in that first 90 days. Most people do it by agreement. In other words, don't have to go to court for it. I've had one person, it was this exact same thing in this scenario.
Husband was they were probably in their mid sixties. He was not home and came home one day and his wife was gone. Of like 40 years. He's like, I thought I gave her a great life. I thought we were happy. They had shit ton of money and savings. I just don't think they worked on the relationship. And it's also
your [00:08:00] need in your marriage is going to change, right? So, but back to the counseling. So that case we we filed to get
So she didn't want to do it.
Right. But here's the thing. When I get the request on the other end, I say, look, you have to go, but you don't have to engage like, you can go and just sit there and you can just stare at the wall, that's a bad use of your time and money.
So usually I tell people, let's agree to one, check the box and be done so that you don't have to deal with it. In my, practice, I've seen it more recently, more common, but it's not a very common thing. But I like to tell people that because when they come in kind of distraught, I say you have that option.
And if nothing else, you can say, please explain to me just so I can. Figure out how to move forward.
There's a list at the courthouse of therapists, I've never actually seen it, I'm told, but you can generally just pick whoever you want to go to with your insurance or out of pocket.
And have you seen any relationships recover
Whether or not it was court appointed. I don't think it was, I remember this woman came in, think they have one kid , and , she said, my husband's [00:09:00] not attracted to me anymore and I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I really wanna work on things.
And I'm like, all right, well ask him to do counseling
So he had asked her for the divorce in this case and , she wanted to fight to get it
back. Yep. Yep. Get it back. Okay.
So I,
the other attorney I said they want to do counseling, he agreed. I didn't hear from her again for, I don't even know how long, and it was probably a year or two later that she reached out and said can you withdraw the divorce complaint or what, or what, I don't remember because I, again, he probably filed, so I can't withdraw what he files.
But yeah, they reconciled. That's the one that just popped into my head. But yeah, I mean, it's, it happens. It's not common, but it happens.
My dad best advice he ever gave is divorce is not an option, barring of course, extreme situations, it's coming back to the table.
And pushing through at times when you don't want to. I'm not saying I'm perfect and sure as shit not, everybody wants to quit. I've wanted to quit. I've wanted to be like, this is hard. I don't want to do this. Everybody does.
It's a matter of going, do I try, do I push because I have a good person
I would imagine a lot of these situations are feeling like the [00:10:00] grass is greener.
Oh my God. Yes.
When it's just this totally out of the blue, maybe midlife crisis type thing, it's probably like Oh, my friend's single and they get to go on dates
Well, I don't know if you know anybody who's in the dating world right now, they would tell you it fucking sucks. I have a lot of friends who are single and it sucks.
I think it's more grass is greener. It might be an affair or somebody that they're at least interested in that they think it's going to be better. But there's a thing movie, High Fidelity, John Cusack. It's about a guy who has a relationship, and she's wonderful, and then he screws it up, and there's another woman involved, and If I remember correctly, and then at the end, he ends up back with the person he started with.
And he said, the thing is, is that, early in a relationship, all the women have their lace underwear or their thongs or whatever he says out. But after time, no matter who you're with, you're always going to see the granny panties. Those are my words, but that he talks about it with underwear.
And he's right. I'm reading a book right now because , I am always painfully working on myself. I like to read fiction as Emily just had me read Fourth Wing. So if anybody who's read it[00:11:00]
we could do a fourth wing podcast.
and a dragon.
Right. And it's not my normal genre, but normally I have a fiction and a self help going. , the self help book that I'm reading is you can fantasize about anybody being better, but you have to, you have to realize that everybody's going to have their baggage.
Everybody you date or end up marrying, you're going to look at them at some point and go, Oh, for real, like forever. I'm sure our husbands haven't thought that,
No, never. They love us so much.
I just think people don't talk about it. I think they're afraid to say, I'm not happy.
It doesn't even have to be like longterm, just like in the moment, sometimes it just helps to talk, but that goes back to the first thing. You hold it in and you hold it in and you hold it in and you never talk about it, you never deal with it.
Of course you're going to end up in that situation.
Every person thinks sometimes the grass is greener, whether it's a job, whether it's a relationship, but every job gets hard. Every relationship gets hard. Every marriage is going to have struggles, , financial, emotional, sexual.
What it really what I think it goes down to is control [00:12:00] You can't control other people. And so when you're frustrated with the person that you're Maybe subconsciously trying to control
But you can't control anybody.
I tell people all the time, like in a consult, constant, like, can you control that person?
No.
, can you control whatever it is now? What can you control you? So when you do the grass is always greener, you're trying to control everything else in your environment.
Even with kids, people think, when the kids are young, , I had control. No, no. You had the illusion of control because they were younger and you can shove them in a car seat and it's easier, but you've never ever controlled anything but yourself. And so when you're doing the grass is always greener, you're looking outside of yourself as opposed to inside yourself, because it's easier to look outside to say that is going to be better than what you have to work on.
But the thing is, is you're still the same person inside and you're gonna have that same result no matter what if you don't work on you.
And also there's no one that's perfect.
You [00:13:00] get to that point where you've got to either push through , because of whatever reason, or you end up Breaking up.
, the novelty is worn off. You're starting to see their flaws. Maybe you wanna hide your flaws at that point. You're tired of covering up. Don't have any Right. Well, I read a shit ton of self-help books because I have probably more than I probably care to admit, but I know I need to work on it because
I'll use Steve. Usually it's my issue, right? Well, what am I really upset about here? It's really something inside. So the grass is always greener is because you can't control the other person. So you're thinking it will be different. But the thing is, is that unless you work on what you're really struggling with, you're not going to.
And that comes from self reflection personally, but also, , however many years I've been sitting across the table from people
People want to control other people. That's where you feel safe. Once people start learning more that they can't control other people, they can only control themselves, we're going to keep seeing a high amount of divorce.
. If you are finding that you want to get a divorce, , if you really dig deep it's because you're trying to control the uncontrollable. And once you can acknowledge that and then work on who, what you can [00:14:00] control.
, everybody's gone through it at some point, but it's not just marriages, it's businesses, it's friendships, the only thing, you probably really can't quit, although you can, or your kids
We thought we were controlled as kids. We weren't. I have to control myself. How do I react,
, so the next one's a little bit like the opposite. . I'm about to tell my wife I'm filing for divorce. She's a good person. I do love her and don't want to hurt her more than I'll have to.
And so I want to do it in the kindest way possible and need tips for those who have been through it. How did your ex tell you that seemed like the best, kindest possible way to do so? Or perhaps what do you wish had happened differently to help it hurt as little as possible?
Well, I can tell you what not to do. Don't just serve them with a divorce complaint. People do that. I'm like, Oh, well, that's going to set us off on a good spot. I mean, I think the answer to that question is you're probably about a year behind where you should have been.
You should have been talking about this a year ago. This guy in six months, just hypothetically will now be dating and he's going to go, well, , why can't the kids meet? Jenny, or why is my wife still so upset?
Cause you've been processing now [00:15:00] for 18 months and everybody else is only at six. So you need to let everybody catch up because you've had a year of doing that. So I think the answer is you got to start when the problem, not that you want a divorce, but you got to say like, I'm not happy. And then process because then that person is along for the ride, if you will.
And maybe they can improve and things. But at this point, if you're already decided. , it depends on a lot of things. Do you have young kids? Do you have not? But I would take that person aside, whatever that means. Take them to dinner. I don't know, maybe not a public place, but just tell them directly, direct.
Just don't sugarcoat it. I had this person in yesterday her ex to be in a counseling session said, I don't think I ever loved you. And she goes, I wish he had just told me that from before. And then she was telling me the things that he was doing leading up to it.
To it. And I was like, I know you don't think this. , but he was afraid to tell you he was done. He was afraid to be direct. And she's like, I just wish he would've been. I'm like, Uhhuh, I'm sure you do. So, back to being just direct. [00:16:00] Jen, I'm not happy. I haven't been. I should have told you I haven't been, but I'm at the point where I believe that divorce is best for me and ultimately you and I.
Don't have all the answers, but this is where I am. Just be direct. It's harder. But that's the only thing I can say.
I think it speaks to those people they're at least thinking about the other person's feelings, they're trying to not upset them. But you're kind of saying it's best to just rip the band aid because it doesn't matter how you do it, it's going to upset them.
I'm not good at being direct personally, period. I always say I'm a really good advocate for other people. I'm a terrible advocate for myself, but. direct because people want to be told directly.
It'll hurt in the short term more probably, but it's going to be a better outcome long term. I don't think anybody benefits from the drag out for six months trying to say, maybe do this, maybe, maybe do this, maybe. I remember a woman was like, well, maybe if I do this, maybe if I do that and I go, there's nothing you're going to be able to do to make that person happy because that's on him.
Did you see that [00:17:00] woman who just died, who was the cat woman?
Yes.
She like tried to turn herself into a cat so that her
there's a lot of plastic surgeon. Yeah.
Allegedly, . She thought it was because her ex from, like, way back in, , the 90s, he really liked cats, and he thought that he would love her more if she looked like
she liked
, and that didn't work.
, you are trying to control the uncontrollable. You're trying to, in this situation, if that's how it turned out, she's trying to do something to herself to control another person.
So I want to control him and make him attracted to me. She's trying to control his reaction. You have to stop and go, what am I trying to control? Where, I'm going to guess it didn't work, number one, I'm going to guess,
So she got two and a half billion dollars in like 1993 . And then she was getting a hundred million dollars, a year after that. But one of the stipulations was she wasn't allowed to use it for plastic surgery.
I don't think
So I don't think it worked.
I don't think he was allowed to
surgery.
If you're trying to control somebody else through your behavior, whatever it is, it's never going to work. Never. [00:18:00] Never. Never. So
keep your face. Don't change it. Yeah. You're beautiful.
you want to do, , to yourself for whatever reason.
Okay, this one's going to kind of pull on experiences that you've had.
What do you think are common reasons men file for divorce instead of women? And what reasons for divorce do you think women don't often talk about?
All right. So there's two questions in there.
What are some reasons men would file and not the woman?
Hmm. Well, if they were Truly interested in men they might I mean I've had that and I'm like you just don't have the parts.
It happens, that is not uncommon and that that's not unique to men. I actually have a client where They had an open marriage and in her open marriage. She realized that she was not the right person for him attracted to men.
And her husband was not accepting it. And I was like, but you don't want a penis. Like I just point blank said it. She's like, yes, I don't know why he doesn't get it. And I'm like, whatever. I don't think there's anything unique to men that I can think of off the top of my head. I will say I've seen a trend. That when men in particular hit a certain income level, I can see a change in their behavior, or at [00:19:00] least I've heard from clients that that's a big, turn, but I don't think there's really anything that I can think of that's unique to men.
Okay, and then the second question was, what reasons for divorce do you think women don't often talk about? Maybe ones they're most secretive about, or maybe ashamed isn't the right word, but like, maybe just don't want it to be quite as public, anything that you can think of?
So here's what I will say, people try to make the other person the bad guy. So meaning if it's just not working, instead of just saying that they're gonna try to make the person a villain somehow.
It's like when I was dating somebody and I didn't like them anymore.
But I remember be like, I just wish you would be a dick so I could make it about him and break up with him. Not because I lost
on me. So then now everyone feel bad for
percent. And that happens with marriages too. So, you know.
know.
Whatever reason, and it could not be anything salacious, but I think people usually try to make it worse.
Like, he's a dick. He's horrible. He did this. He did that. Or she did this. She did that. Whereas really, that's not the issue [00:20:00] and I think they're trying to make it seem like they, they made this decision so that , their guilt is assuaged a bit.
You never know what goes on behind closed doors.
You really, you really, really don't. But I think most people it goes back to communication. Most divorces happen because of lack of communication. Most. And again, control.
And then, this is just kind of like an aside, the people who are the unhappiest post the most on social
media. Oh my god, yes. Mm hmm.
So it's, it's almost like the,
a correlation. The more you post, the more unhappy you are.
but it's like, Oh, I thought you guys were so happy because you were literally posting about it every day on social media.
And it's like, Oh no, actually he's a terrible person. It's like, well then I
I see that with kids, too. I forget what
why were you
my You keep posting that. One of my kids showed me something and they knew whatever was happening behind closed doors. I think there's a correlation.
The more you post, how great everything is, the really, you're trying to convince yourself that it's
And it doesn't mean you should post the bad things, but you just don't have to post at all. Who are you trying to convince yourself or everyone else that you're happy?
I think it ends up like, oh, if a hundred people like this photo, then we must be happy. , it's very strange to [00:21:00] me, but clearly there's a personality that needs that kind of validation.
But again, it's because they're not addressing it internally. And you're exactly right. If everybody sees that this is great, maybe it is great.
I think it's about not addressing your problems. . It's about letting it fester and fester and fester and fester. And every time you let it fester, you're letting that crack between the two of you get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
And at some point that crack is too big to fix.
And they post on social media how happy they are. Then they disappear for a few years and they come back with a new last name and a new baby.
I'm at the age where this is starting to happen.
And I'm like, whoa, they're have an entire new life, but they were so happy before,
People don't realize that we change so much, right? I was 28 when I got married, who I was then, my self esteem, my everything was so different. It's been 20 years since I met him. I'm a very different person 20 years ago. I mean, course same, but a lot is different. And if you don't let people grow and evolve and you want to keep people in a box because you're trying to control them back to the thing,
At least try not to control it, because you can't control anybody. That's the thing.
All right, here's [00:22:00] the next one. So long story short Divorce seems likely.
We have two kids and are agreed on splitting custody, etc, etc, but I've never done this before. I'm looking to you guys for advice, not legal advice. So the first one is the house. We want to make it easy for the kids and stay in the area and one solution is to keep this house and one person moves to a different house nearby.
That way the shock for the kids is smallest. However, I'm afraid that the parent that moves away will be considered the one leaving by the kids. Is it better to sell and buy two new places, even if that means a completely different area and switching schools, friends, etc. The kids, how to tell them. We agree it shouldn't be anyone's fault.
What else do we need to think about? They are six and two years old. Other practical stuff. Again, easy up on the legal stuff. I'm looking for practical everyday advice here. Custody one week each. How should we split stuff? Should one parent keep all the old stuff and the other parent buys new stuff or does it not matter?
I know that's like a lot and we can break it up, but they're intending to be amicable. They're in very early stages and they're kind of like, how do we start this on the right foot?
I think [00:23:00] this person is overthinking things a little bit.
Trying to control, perhaps?
that. Exactly. So six and two, I will say I don't think generally that's appropriate for week on week off, because , time is irrelevant to a two year old, so you need to be careful. be more where they are. But here are my three things that pop into my head.
Number one, . I had recently read that when parents don't have 50 50, , the parent that doesn't have equal time, so the person in this, in a situation has less could look as if they don't want to be with the kid. Well, my dad or mom doesn't want to be with me because they're, right?
So kids, kids are always about themselves. Everything is about your kid. The world revolves around themselves. So, yeah. Copernicus, right? So kids internalize that, Oh, my dad's only with me every other weekend. He doesn't want to be with me when it's not the case. Right? So the, the theory is, is that not just for all the other reasons, but so the kid feels that that parent wants to be with them.
So I would say 50 50, if More often than not is the right thing. It's hard. I [00:24:00] get it. And there's certain practicalities that you can't get over.
The kids are not counting dates either. Kids aren't going to know whether or not they've had 43%, like, they're going to know substantial, right? So I don't want to get stuck on 50 50 as much as what's in the kid's best interest, but as frequent and consistent contact with both parents, that's number one.
Here are my other two emotional tips that I give, it's as often as possible, speak positively about the other parent. If your kid's making a joke. You are so funny like your mom.
Your mom always made me laugh, you don't have to like the person, now, but at some point you found certain things good about them. It's one of my favorite questions to ask in trials to the person who's , against my client. So if mom's going, , your client is awful, I'll get up there and I'll go, tell me something good about my client.
Your kids are half you, ? So when you say positive things about the other side, you're saying positive things about the kid. And when, if you can't say anything positive about the other parent, then your kids know it, or people will say, I don't talk [00:25:00] about them at all.
So I'm doing it right. Fuck. No, you're not. Your kids know that you're avoiding talking about their parent. Silent treatment is the worst thing you can do. To a person, it's also the worst thing you can do is to not acknowledge that other kid's parent. So my best advice is to suck up your own ego.
And find something as often as possible that you can say nice about. the parent. I do it in my own house in an intact household because it's important for my kids to think the best of their dad. I mean, he is great, so it's easier, but the way that my kids talk about their dad is , I have nailed it because they see him as the greatest person in the world. So my advice is to always find something as often as possible. You know, you're great at drawing just like your dad. You're so funny just like your mom. Your mom was the smartest person I ever met your kids will glow when you do that.
And this one's going to probably have people go like. You're crazy, but it works. Which is have at least one to two pictures of the family in your house, I learned this for lack of a better word, cause my friend who lives in another state [00:26:00] went through a divorce.
She has one child and I visit her every year and I go in her house and she's now been divorced and separated. I did her divorce. So probably 2017. So now, going on 10 years and she still has family pictures in the house of her and her ex and the child. And I'm like, God, that's so good for her, child to see.
And so that's kind of what got me thinking about it. And a case that I recently had that was as, contentious as possible, the one that I thought I couldn't settle and it's quasi settled. I told my client, I said, look, you're going to think I'm nuts. And this person has done everything in her power to hurt my client.
I mean, not exaggerating. Police contact, CYF, you name it, they've done it. And I said, I want you to put a picture of you four as a family in their rooms. I said, you don't have to have it in your house proper, because I get it. But put it in their rooms. And he came in, he showed me the pictures that he was going to do,
and he put them in their rooms and, I could actually cry, the reaction those kids had, he said, was beyond explanation. He's like, they were [00:27:00] elated. They were so excited to see that their mom had a picture in the house. It just reminds them that their foundation is still there because divorce rocks foundations.
Frankly, divorce doesn't ruin kids. People do. That's my best advice to this person. Don't worry about who keeps the dishwasher, the rug. The kids aren't looking at that. Look at how you talk about the other parent. And also if you're getting a divorce and you're afraid to talk about the other parent, guess what the kids know.
They know their other parent isn't here. You talking about it. Isn't going to remind them you're talking about it is going to. Reassure them that you still support that relationship, period. So people think that I just don't talk about it and the kids will be fine opposite.
Talk about it, talk positively, , not negatively. And even if it kills you, 'cause it's not about you, it's about your kids. You have got to talk positively.
I think we have time for one more. How's that sound? All right. I am 40. I'm due in [00:28:00] three weeks.
My husband is 36. He said he didn't want me to go back to work afterwards. I was shocked because this is something , we never have talked about. But he said that circumstances changed, and if it was about money, he will pay me my salary.
I have never agreed to this. I love my job and he knows that but he said his decision is final and that I should be grateful. He's encouraged me to ask anyone if they would stop working if someone paid them and see what they would answer.
Mom said she definitely would stop working. I didn't ask the rest of my family because he had this I told you so expression on his face.
What is your answer? Fuck no. And I realize this does go on my firm website, so sorry for the potty words, but everybody who works with me knows me.
I don't care. I'm going to say something controversial, never, never, never, never, Be a true, when I say true, meaning nothing else beyond stay at home parent. Never. Because when you do that, you give up your identity. So my advice to every single person, happily married, never thinking divorce is gonna [00:29:00] happen, and your spouse makes a million dollars a year, you don't have to work, never stop doing something on a weekly basis to build who you are.
It doesn't have to get paid. You can volunteer.
In this situation, even takes another step further, she wants to keep working. It's not like she's asking to stay home , or dreams of staying home. She's like, no, I want to keep working. And he's saying, I'm forbidding you.
Well, no one should forbid you to do anything, and I would be like, peace out, I don't care, easier said than done. In family law, you are dependent and you are stuck if you end up getting a divorce, and you have no means to support yourself, or you have lost your identity.
Your self esteem, right? So work gives you financial income, it gives you self esteem, or at least it should, gives you purpose, and even if you want to be a stay at home mom, and , my best friend Amber she used to be, because her kids are old now, bring them to my bosom, it was always her joke.
But guess what? She always had a job, even if it was part [00:30:00] time. And it was not because of my advice, but because it's still who she was. So I don't ever advise someone to be a stay at home parent. Do something for you, do something that makes you independent, that makes you anything but a mom. or dad Because the thing is, guess what, your kids are going to leave, and you need to have an identity beyond them.
Your kids go quick. And in my house, it's All of my kids are gone by 51? Is that right? Yeah. I sure as shit hope I have another 40 to 50 years after that. So, I need to have an identity. And I get it. My husband said to me because his mom didn't work , until
he went to sixth grade. He's like, I think that you could do that. , And for a second, I thought about it because I was like, Oh, but then I was like, Mm, no, I went to law school for a reason. So I really support this person in particular.
Like you said, she wants to work.
The terminology that I really despise in this is that he's going to pay her.
He's trying to say, I value your job here.
but [00:31:00] it's their money. No matter how they do their finances, it's still like, , I'll allow you to what? Spend?
It's like when people say, my spouse is going to watch the kids. No, you're not watching your own kids. You're not a babysitter. They're your
Or I'm paying for dinner. Okay, maybe, but , it's
using your card,
of our money. , even if we have separate bank accounts, it's still both of our money at the end of the day. So to be like, Oh, I'll allocate your salary to you.
Let's play that out. Let's say he makes 300, 000 a year and she made a hundred. Isn't she entitled to 150 if you think about it, like half of it, like, no, I don't know. I
think so. Now they're going to make a hundred less. , no matter how you look at it, he's not going to make a hundred more by her.
This doesn't sound like it has much to do with money as it does with control. And
, and it's easier when someone stays home. If you can afford it. I think on the family, it can be a lot easier because someone's always home.
If that person is valued, it could be great.
But the thing is, is people change and people feel valued until they're not.
And it also is not fulfilling for everyone.
But it's certainly easier [00:32:00] for the full time working person to know that the kids are home with someone. They don't have to worry about getting home. They don't have to worry about picking up at daycare. They don't have to worry about going to the doctors.
And that is a full time job. I am not saying being a parent is not a full time job. What I'm saying is that if you are home with your kids and your kids are not in any type of child care, find a way to find five hours a week to do something for you.
And, , I do think every woman should have her own bank account. I'll be sexist. Have it have your own bank account. Because I can't tell you how many people I get emails from that say, can you do a free consult? I don't have access to my money, which by the way, I don't do free consults. But I say to them, anybody who I think is worth talking to in Chester County does not do free consults.
And I know that to be factual, but then I say you have to borrow from a friend or family member. And that's exactly why, because now this person is trapped. They don't even have the ability to talk to a lawyer on how to get out. So I think always have access to your own money. And I hope every marriage ends up never needing to have that type of safeguard.[00:33:00]
And I don't think doing that is planning for a divorce either. I think it's just recognizing that you are an independent person. ,
To me, he's being selfish because he's saying, I don't want to have to worry about parenting.
I want my life to stay the same. I want you to have to worry about it
and then all of a sudden he's contributed to his retirement over the years.
And they're not looking at their calendars to say, well, who can take them to the doctor this week? Who can go to the school thing on this day? Because he'll just say, Well, I pay you to stay home.
That's what I pay you
that's what I paid for, blech, leave
woman.
I know it's a
I know it's a little tough when you're due in three weeks. That's not a great situation. It's a
a red flag for sure and I do get it.
There's days I'm like, why do I have to work? I don't want to have to work. I want someone to take care of me and to be dependent. It's actually less about work. I actually really like what I do. It's more about like, I want someone to take care of me,
, like a celebrity.
Not money wise, but they wake up and there's people there. Making them their breakfast. Breakfast on the table. They're cleaning up at, , , not money, but just, Ease. , kind of like you're like a toddler and someone just comes around [00:34:00] after you and picks up after you and gives you what you need, but then you can do what you want to do.
The truth is when you have people taking care of you like that, you're giving them the control over your life. I think the theme of this Podcast is control. But it's really going to be the theme of every podcast, to be honest, or every conversation, because it comes back to that. And I think back to the control, if you give up your identity and don't do anything outside of the home, you are allowing others to control you and money equals control.
I had another meeting this week talking to a client about His ex and the dad and I said look she relies on Her dad to get money and he likes to control her and it's this codependent circle where? She says to her soon to be ex. Well, I'm just gonna go to dad for money And he creates that dependency, and it's this unhealthy relationship.
And when I told him that, he was like, Oh my God, you're so right, and I'm like, Mm hmm. So just be glad you're done with that, period. Financial control creates dependence. [00:35:00] And it's not healthy, period. It's just not. And there's no way to say that someone having financial control of everything and giving you no independence is healthy.
And I challenge anybody to tell me I'm wrong.
I told a client this yesterday. , I said, you're trying to control him. This is a custody thing. And stop, stop. Who cares if the kids get their, it's not Sudafed because I don't think kids can have that, but whatever the hell the cold medicine was, stop, he's going to figure it out.
You're trying to control him. Stop it. I said, I'm giving you a role. You cannot email for 24 hours.
There's a reason why on Kieran's soccer team, there's a rule that you're not supposed to reach out to a coach for 24 hours.
I don't ever get involved, but that's just because I'm weird, probably. But it's because you've got to have the emotions down. So in those moments, you're in fight or flight, you got to take deep breath, reflect, take 24 hours before You can probably even see what the real issue is, but you really have to be intentional and deliberate.
And it is easier said than done, which is why 95 percent of the time I feel like I'm giving this type of advice than I am true legal advice. Because I'm , helping people realize that , the emotions are what [00:36:00] controlling and trying to help manage that. I mean, all day, every day. Yeah, I
I can see that.
Because a lot of this then just trickles down into the legal side of it. Once you acknowledge what the real problems are, then what are the real solutions
Right. Yesterday was a long day, but I had court in the morning and , the legal issue to solve was easy.
The emotions weren't. I said, stop, stop. Stop. That's an emotional conversation. That is all your emotion. Fair. But my job is to take you and point out that's an emotionally driven analysis, not legally. And people hate that. The courts don't care.
No, no, the courts do care. The courts are trying to take out emotional decisions. They were not here to micromanage. It's not easy, but that same client emailed, thank you so much. I really needed that perspective. That's more of what your family law attorney probably does or should be, and if your family law attorney is not helping you stop and reflect and look at your emotions and give you those types of talks, I think you're losing out.
Here's a saying that we'll end with. This was from [00:37:00] my OJ Simpson podcast. Remember when I did that?
did
Nailing history, check it out. It's hard to see the picture when you're inside the frame.
I like that saying.
I have 7, 000 isms, but I'm like, you're in the weeds.
I'm above the trees, I'm the bird above the trees and I can see the woods and I can see how you're in the weeds.
, get out of the weeds. Or what I said this week to a client, I said, Think of a dartboard.
We're only talking about that bullseye, that tiny little itty bitty bullseye. That's all we're talking about. And he is talking about everything else and all the circles around it. And almost all of that's emotion. And fine, that's important. It's not to say that your emotion's not important.
But what you have to do is realize you don't make decisions on emotion,
alright, well,
Thanks for coming in on a Saturday.
it is Saturday. I must go pick up Claire. She's at a playdate.
And I'm going to do some work. No fun.
And then I'm gonna go clean out my closet, which is really not fun. It's like my least favorite thing to do. So, on
New Year! Yep.
I'll see you next time.
Em.