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. [00:00:00] I thought , we would do a little reintroduction our numbers are going up, so people are finding us, even though we haven't been posting too regularly. So for those who are a little new to the podcast and maybe haven't listened to all the episodes, you wanna give a little intro?

Sure. Well, I'm Julie Potts. I'm an attorney in Chester County, Pennsylvania. I only practice in Chester County, Pennsylvania. . I've been a lawyer for over 20 years, family law after my DA experience, which ended in 2009.

So that's all I do is family law. And we started the podcast mainly because I feel like there's a lot of misinformation out there. . But also, I think almost more importantly, to empower people.

Information is power and I like to tell people that, , I'm telling you what you need to hear, not what you wanna hear, because the only person who benefits from what you wanna hear is the lawyer. So that's why I do what I do.

. I'm Emily, I'm a friend

neighbor,

neighbor slash i edit the [00:01:00] podcast slash kind of co-host the podcast a little bit. 

I am not an attorney, so I ask the questions that all of us non-attorneys might have as Julie's going through her thoughts and stories and, and all of that.

So yeah, sometimes things seem obvious maybe to people who have been through it, but I'm, also have never been divorced, so I'm kind of coming to it as like, this is all brand new to me. So if you're in that situation where you've never gone through it, hopefully I'm asking the questions that you're also wondering as you're listening,

Divorce sucks. I have told people I'm the divorce lawyer who doesn't like divorce. I want people to know that this is not a podcast to encourage or discourage divorce, but I will say that the emotional toll that divorce takes is not to be taken lightly.

Not to say that there should be any legal roadblocks to divorce. 'cause I think that is not the government's place. But it is too easy in some ways to get a divorce. And the best advice I was given by my dad, was don't make it an option.

Obviously there's exceptions. I think I've said that with. Drugs or [00:02:00] alcohol or abuse. No, marriage is perfect. If you're in a marriage that you feel is, is a good person and. Just, eh, I encourage you to find other ways to try to get past it before you seek divorce.

, probably there's a lot that you learn about divorce as you go through it that maybe you weren't expecting.

And so if you can kind of have some insight ahead of time, maybe some issues you might run into, , or circumstances you never really thought about, you can take these stories in and think about is it really something you want or does that apply to you? And things like

that.

In the John Cusack movie, high Fidelity, , he's in a relationship and then there's somebody he finds new and exciting. And of course there's the sexy underwear, but after time everybody , gets out the old gross cotton underwear, and that kind of is a good example of just every relationship.

The grass is not always greener, everybody has their cotton underwear, everybody has baggage. And I think that is a good example of what. Can happen in divorces as [00:03:00] people think that it will be better with somebody else.

But the thing is, is that you're still the same. And unless you worked on you and you work on your ability to be in a relationship, it's likely that you may end up in the same situation. Had you done the work with the person you chose, you may end up. In a very happy marriage because you needed to do the work anyway.

So and you know, Disney movies are not real.

I just wanted to say before we get started, if you're finding this podcast , informative, please take two minutes to subscribe, leave a five star review, share with your friends who might be going through a divorce, have shared custody.

Maybe they're just going through a rough time in their relationship and they're looking for some objective guidance and support on some of the issues they may encounter if they do decide to separate from their partner like we were just talking about. So yeah, spread the word.

And now we're gonna get started.

So what are we talking about today, Julie?

This month is Mental Health Awareness month may also , my birthday month. So I I thought it would be a good time to, I just like my birthday, by the way.

It's just fun. But

Okay, [00:04:00] well, Julie's

birthday also

Cinco de Mayo, so she has maybe the best, most delicious birthday

true in the world. It's true. So single de Mayo is all fun, but more importantly is , mental health awareness. And I have a lot of people who come in. Usually it's the initial consult, and hopefully I help them in that moment.

They come in with their head held down when they start talking about their mental health struggles. I think it's a good idea to talk about mental health, what it looks like with regards to family court , and whether or not you should be concerned about disclosing your mental health issues, concerns, history, what have you.

So that's what we're gonna talk about today. I think this will get us started, is when courts misunderstand mental illness versus stress or trauma. So let's start with what I would say is the good news which is that courts are usually smart enough to know that they are not the ones who need to decide that.

I usually joke and say, we're just dumb lawyers. We don't know. How to help people who are struggling with [00:05:00] mental health. That's why we have mental health professionals. So oftentimes, and, and in in particular in Pennsylvania Caden's law has been enacted and updated our custody statute that happened in August.

2024. And that has enhanced safety concerns with regards to the parties and other factors that go into the best interest of the children. All that should be said is that part of it is often psychological and risk assessments. 

And that's important because we as the practitioners defer to the experts to say, oftentimes, whether I'm the person asking or the other side, this person needs to get assessed because we need to know if there's an issue and if there is, how can we address it?

, we recognize as attorneys in the courts that we don't know and we look to the experts. 

So in that case, one side or both sides or whoever decides someone needs an evaluation by professional, how does the cost of that work?

It's typically 50 50, but we always put in a provision that says without prejudice to reapportionment. In other words, if there is some reason that it [00:06:00] should be skewed one way or the other, that is an option always available to the court. Sometimes we also do it based on if there's a support order based on your incomes.

It's hardly ever one party paying. Sometimes it'll be one party pays for the others. So dad would pay for mom, and mom would pay for dad. So everybody has some skin in the game. If one person's getting it done, it's rarely only on one person going back to the skin in the game. So that's important. And I think the other part that most people don't realize.

Is that it's not just self-reporting. If it's me and Steve couldn't come in and give input, well it's as useless as anything because I can say whatever I want. Right. So the important part about a good psych eval is that it has the input of usually the other party and anybody else that the evaluator believes is necessary and review of documents.

So I have seen some psych evals come back that I know that the person was. Not mentally well and they've come back fine. I've also seen ones that I knew [00:07:00] they were not mentally well, and not only did it confirm that, but it was enhancing our understanding and knowledge of the person. But it always has to go back to, they need to have.

More than just the person being evaluated, they do MMPI testing, the one I just read, did the ros bch ink blots, whatever the heck they're called, I forget. They do a lot of of research. And so that person is the expert who then opines what diagnosis, if any, and then what the person needs to do.

So those are the, I would say more extreme situations. There's also. What I would call the regular people who come in and I will say it's usually women who come in with their head held down and they'll say, I'm on Zoloft or I'm on Wellbutrin, or I'm on, they absolutely physically, turn into that letter C like their head goes down and they are ashamed.

And oftentimes, unfortunately, again, I'm just being generalized. The other side in this hypothetical is a guy would weaponize and say, [00:08:00] Hey, I'm gonna tell the court that you are depressed and you struggle with depression and you struggle with anxiety. And they have been been told that so many times that when they finally come to me, they hang their head in shame.

I usually tell people in that moment, you should be proud. The courts are gonna be like, great, someone is addressing their issue. That's what they want to hear. Being on Zoloft or Wellbutrin or A DHD medication or whatever it is. Those are all, not only, in my opinion, considered a normal part of, especially our current society, meaning, 

people are doing more than they really are ever meant to do, but courts wanna hear that you're helping yourself. And if you're helping yourself, then you should lift your head up and march in there proudly. It's the people who are not helping themselves, who are refusing to acknowledge they have an issue that I have concern.

If you're taking accountability for your actions and your other side is saying they're gonna use it against you, I would say, okay, go ahead. Because , it's gonna be a good [00:09:00] thing for you, not a bad thing, as long as you're dealing with it.

That's a good thing.

I'm kind of thinking both scenarios where maybe you're in denial and it comes back that you do have a severe mental health issue, and then what happens after that? And also you come in, I have anxiety, I'm depressed. It's, it's bled over to my parenting, it's bled over into my marriage.

The other person's weaponizing it. I'm afraid we're gonna go into court, the judge is gonna yell at me and say like, you're bad parent 'cause you're depressed or whatever. How is that usually then reflected in the custody or divorce situations? So maybe let's start with the less extreme situations. So the more common, very high functioning, very normal type things 

where it would affect custody is only in my experience in , what I would call the special terms. In other words, you're not gonna lose legal custody. That's, I'm not say impossible, but pretty damn close to impossible to lose legal custody. In other words, you get to make decisions about your child regardless of if you're struggling with mental health.

For the most part, physical custody, same. I mean, [00:10:00] it really does not generally with what I would call the more minor. Normal mental health affect it where you might see it as, like I said, the special terms and usually it's reciprocal, usually it's the parties shall continue with their individual therapist.

I'm thinking of one, I would not call this person mild, it's more moderate. There's four mental health diagnoses. So that person has to give us quarterly letters from their mental health provider that simply says Joe Smith is still in treatment and they're compliant with their treatment and medication.

Because there's a lot of case law out there that protects your mental health. So people often say things like, I am violating hipaa. Well, I'm not violating hipaa. I'm not a medical provider. But there's case law out there and they continue to very much protect medical and most importantly, mental health records.

They being the courts, they want people to be able to go to their mental health providers and provide information without the fear of other people using it against you. It would have a chilling effect if I was going through divorce. I obviously would not be [00:11:00] transparent if it was gonna be used against me.

So what the courts are gonna do is they're gonna put provisions in there that have you continue with your treatment provider and any medication and follow the recommendations I. On the flip side, if you're the person who's concerned, how do you really enforce that? It's hard. I hear you on the other side.

How do I know the person's taking their medication? How do I know that they're going to their provider? Well, you have to trust the provider to be honest. And, and if it is in that, , mild range, you gotta have a little bit of faith and you have to trust the other person. And this is a little bit of my tough love at times.

I'm like, you picked him. Usually people have the same struggles for the, for their whole life. It's not usually a surprise. And if you picked 'em, then you've gotta give them that grace that they're gonna get through it. And you can't say, you know, what was going on during the marriage was fine. And now later say it's not fine when you're going through a divorce that that loses weight.

So usually in the more typical cases, you're gonna see complete treatment.

All right, so now let's jump over to these more [00:12:00] severe cases. Whether the person is in denial, they have severe mental health issues, or they kind of know it, but , maybe not officially diagnosed, how does that factor into custody? I. And we're talking about issues that could endanger the children,

When you say in danger, there's two parts. There's physical and then there's mental. Cases where someone has been diagnosed with a personality disorder. , again, , I'm not an expert in psychology, but , I know enough to say what I understand, not what I know and I understand is that you can't treat a personality disorder.

There's no medication for it. In that situation, that is gonna be a lot harder to address , through a custody order. And that could affect somebody's time , and the thought process is, is that the less time someone has, the less they can expose a child to issues. That's an extreme. So an extreme would be personality disorders.

There's cases, and it's not munch in housings by proxy anymore. It's called fictitious disorder, opposed upon another. That those were different issues. Those were more extreme.

Think of a bell curve. Most people fall in the [00:13:00] middle. And usually even if you're going towards the outliers, , you may lose more time. You may have more constrictions on your time. Drug and alcohol is another part of it where. We are fortunate that we do have ways to test drug and alcohol, and they usually go hand in hand with mental illness.

Most people use drugs and alcohol as a form of treatment as opposed to getting the treatment they need. So what you're generally gonna see is the first response is gonna be those special terms. How are you going to help that person? Because the courts don't wanna take custody from you, whoever you are, they wanna see you get help.

And so my advice to people, no matter which side I'm on. If I'm representing the person who is holding on and saying, I don't think he or she should have custody, I say to them, look, if someone told you you're not gonna have custody of your kid unless you did the following, what are you're gonna do?

You're gonna do it. I always say, I'd stand on my head. Whatever the hell you tell me to do to prove that I'm able to do it. And if that's the case, [00:14:00] then good. Then they've proven themselves that they care and they wanna do it on the flip side. If they don't, well then they've proved it themselves and you're not the one proving it.

And that's what the courts are generally gonna do. Give people enough rope to show whether or not they're gonna do it. And if they do it, great, now you have somebody who's taking it more seriously. If they don't, then they hung themselves, you didn't hang them. And , that's the best approach to take.

It's hard. It is a hard thing to do and it's hard to trust that process. But, you have to, or else it's gonna end up becoming a more litigious than it needs to be, which will cost more attorney's fees, which is gonna put your kids in the middle more, and it's gonna only divide you two Further, the goal is always to have people as close to as as possible for the benefit of the kids.

And by close, I mean able to co-parent coexist. That's the ideal. So. Courts are generally gonna find mechanisms to put safeguards in place. The more extreme the issue, it's harder to manage and then that might limit time. One of the most extreme mechanisms is supervision.

Sometimes supervision is [00:15:00] necessary, and that in Pennsylvania now can be a non-professional. And if it's a non-professional, then there has to be a colicy done through the courts because of Cadence Law to confirm that they know what they're doing as a supervisor or there's professional supervision in Pennsylvania.

There it is now a rebuttable presumption of supervision. There's a safety risk that's been determined pfas by hearing, finding like a, finding a fact by a judge, certain crimes. So, and hearings out there to say whether or not this person's a danger. If a court finds this person is a risk of harm, it's a rebuttable presumption that they need to be supervised.

And how do you rebut that presumption? Probably by doing all the things that I'm telling you, doing the work, making sure this person does these certain things of treatment. Before they expand on their custody. So the best way to think about it with mental health is that if you're in that kind of middle.

Don't worry. , do what you're gonna do. Take care of yourself. If you're on those extremes, you're either gonna prove that you care [00:16:00] and you wanna do the work to be better or you're not. Either way, it's in your hands. And if you're on the other side of those, you need to give people the ability to prove themselves either way, because your kids are part of both of you and the courts wanna see you both be a part of your kids' lives.

Do you find that people don't tell you about their mental health issues because they're ashamed? And then can that lead to issues down the line if they're not open about it with , your client to you as their attorney?

Yeah. The, the worst thing you can do is not tell your lawyer. 

Sometimes people come in and it's like, they tell me it's sunshine, roses, and then I talk to , the other lawyer, and I'm like, this is not what I heard. Usually I'll get little hints of things, and so my question is usually, tell me the worst thing that they're gonna say about you, and that usually opens things up.

And depending on each person, , sometimes I'm like, great. If you're on this medication that shows that you're treating it, there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes they'll tell me something and I always say, look, , if we're all judged on our worst parenting moment, we'll all be fucked, present company included.

'cause we've all made [00:17:00] mistakes. And usually that makes people realize, like, okay, don't be so hard on yourself. But it's the people who are not transparent that I'm like, oh, well good to know that you've had two other pfas and you were in treatment and you didn't tell me and you left without a medical advice.

That's when I'm kind of like, if you can't be honest with me, then you're not being honest with yourself. , this is a sort of a tangent, but , we are not as people meant to have , two parents working full time and kids what we as a society have put upon ourselves is, is harsh period. So we all have our stressors. It's not to say you don't have stressors, it's to say the extremes that we have to look out for.

And unfortunately, a lot of people, like I said earlier, they use their other person's mental health as a weapon and, and that needs to stop. 

There was that , new-ish study, I think it was on the podcast, the Daily, actually, I think. Your, Steve sent it to me where it's parents spend more time with their kids now in a two parent working household than they did back in the [00:18:00] seventies when one of the parents stayed home. Hmm.

So you're working and spending more time with your kids than parents. Were with 

With the mom being home all the time. Spent less time with the kids. Because the kids weren't home as much. They were out and they were having their own little social worlds in the neighborhood and things like that.

And parents. And parents just didn't feel as obligated to manage everything with

kids. Entertain. Yes. Mm-hmm.

So, you know, to your point of we're like stressing ourselves out, like, yeah, this isn't really how this was meant to be. This is just how we've evolved as a society. And even just in the past, what, 30, 40 years, it's really gotten.

So that goes into 

the different parenting styles. So sometimes people think a different parenting style is a mental health issue, and, and it's not. There's the four different types. There's authoritarian think of, and I, maybe I'm aging myself, but Captain Entrap from Sound of Music, that guy was authoritarian.

Authoritative is what I hope I try to be, which is, I have boundaries and rules, but I'm not rigid. [00:19:00] And I recognize, at least in my house, my kids are harder on themselves than I will ever be on them. So when they do something, they're probably beating themselves up and I let, I let them do their own. Self reflection than me, but I have boundaries.

There's rules. . Then there's permissive, which is more like, I dunno, whatever. Do whatever you want. You wanna go smoke pot, smoke pot, not advisable. And then there's neglectful. , and neglect can go either way. Neglect , can really be almost too permissive, beyond permissive, and also obviously deprivation.

So some of the more extreme parenting, you could say are mental health issues. But that's not to say that they are. Maybe there's a correlation to some of them, but

Yeah. That's interesting.

Mm-hmm.

All right, so let's wrap this up with, do you have

practical

tips for people. Going through the court systems to protect themselves without hiding their mental health struggles. Are there things they should share? Shouldn't share things they should be taking notes on 

are there things that I know it's like a little bit of a borderline 'cause it's medical and you might not want everyone to know all of your [00:20:00] business, but if, if you're concerned about this. And you feel like something's gonna be held against you or there things that you can do to kind of protect yourself proactively.

think the most important thing that you can do as a litigant is, is to have appropriate amount of transparency. So appropriate is obviously relative, .

I'll use me. I don't care. It's on my work calendar when I go see my therapist, I, have no shame , in that, , so if I was getting a divorce, I wouldn't keep a log of how many times I see my therapist. But I would know that I would be happy to share with Steve or the court that I have seen my therapist for the past x amount of years and sometimes it's once a week, sometimes once a month, but whatever. I would be willing to be transparent about that. And any other, stuff like , I'm on Wellbutrin, I would be transparent. I take 300 milligrams every day . So those are the things.

Be transparent. On the flip side, you don't have to be oversharing. No one is entitled to know what I tell Karen when I'm in therapy. And you can tell your lawyer, your lawyer doesn't have to say your lawyer has [00:21:00] attorney-client privilege with regards to anything you say, unless you're gonna be a danger to yourself or others.

But really, I don't need to know your inner. Issues so much as I just need to know that you're transparent and know that the law, at least in Pennsylvania, the case law is out there to protect you so that you can continue to speak to your providers with confidence that that is protected.

And, and another thing to think about, it's always good to have kids in therapy, I often say that everybody should be in therapy at some point. Period. It's a good thing. I do think the courts have turned to see it more as a positive than a negative.

If your other side has a basis for your kid needing therapy, don't say no. That just makes you look like an asshole. My kids have been in therapy. 

I say that because they have as good of a life, I think as they could have. But you know what they, they like having time to talk about them and what they are going through, and they can complain about me and they can complain about their siblings and, and that's what, it's good for them. 

It's a good release. So let your kids be in therapy.

I've gone through therapy with my kids too, and [00:22:00] I think maybe it's not what people envision, sometimes it's , what are you struggling with in school and how can we maybe organize you a little bit better to get better grades? Or giving them the confidence to go ask their teacher a question.

Kids' problems are different sometimes than our problems and helping them deal with those littler things, I think can then help them cope with these bigger things that are happening in their lives if their parents aren't together 

a hundred percent, let them bitch about you two. Good. Go, go tell them I'm terrible. Fine. I don't care. You know, and I say that in jest, but it's true. Like if they are frustrated with me, whatever it is, then that that's a safe place for them to share.

they can get that objective perspective from their therapist, right? Who can walk them through what processing those feelings.

I mean there's always healthy, there's always a benefit and, and when your kids are 14 in Pennsylvania, they have autonomy in their mental health. They are the ones who decide if they go to mental health treatment, they decide whether or not they go inpatient, if they don't go inpatient.

And I say that because I often tell people, especially when they have like an 11, 12-year-old and a divorce starts, I say, why don't you get 'em started now? Because once they're 14. It's not gonna be the same. [00:23:00] And once kids start, usually if you get 'em with a good person, they're gonna see the benefit and they won't resist it so much.

And so if you have kids, it's not a bad idea, especially at a divorce. Even if there's not really an obvious issue, I hate people say all the time, oh, my kids are fine. Yeah, they are acting fine, but if you're going through a divorce, your kids are not fine.

They're just not, they are not fine. , they need help. So let them get that help that they need. So be transparent, get your help. And it's always good to tell your lawyer everything that you need to know, but mental health awareness is important, and I hope everybody continues to think of it as just as important as your physical health.

In fact, I probably take care of my mental health better than my physical health,

I'm glad that the world has turned to, yeah, not make things so weird if you're trying to take care of your mental health. All right, well, we'll wrap up there. All right, so if you enjoyed listening as a reminder, I. Subscribe, leave a five star review and you can always shoot us an email at lawyer Julie [00:24:00] fifty5@gmail.com if you have any feedback or suggestions, and we'll talk to you next time.